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Make Mirror classes actual mirrors

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Make Mirror classes actual mirrors

Dhagaz's Avatar


Dhagaz
01.30.2012 , 10:28 PM | #721
Quote: Originally Posted by Kellindell View Post
What exactly dont you agree with?
As I have stated before. I've PvPed a lot in this game. Currently Rank 52. Maybe I've just not been able to fight many Pubs since until recently most of my WZs have revolved around Hutt Ball and fighting other Imps, but in the few battles I've participated in versus Republic players I've not observed any truly significant disadvantage. I've been beaten by Pubs that played their characters better than I played mine. I've beaten Pubs that played worse than me. I've not observed a single class that I seem capable of routinely defeating in combat despite any of the above mentioned issues. Because of this fact I have a hard time believing that the core issue here is animation or a conspiracy by BW Devs.

If or when I notice that I can consistently defeat players of a certain class despite their obvious superiority in either skill or equipment then I will be more apt to believe these claims. Until such time I simply believe that many of you are having the same issues that many Imp players have / continue to have with adjusting to not being able to Macro "I Win" buttons, not having an Auto-Attack, and not being able to adjust to the fact that while the classes here fit the same function as classes from previous games they are not exact duplicates of those other games classes.

In AION there was an obvious bias towards the Elyos. This was obvious because players were able to post combat log data showing that equally geared, level, class toons would have significant differences in damage dealt, and received. The Elyos had access to several additional World Bosses that the Asmodians did not. Experience, Coin, Reputation, gained from quest were significantly greater for Elyos vs the Asmodians. Finally the Loot tables themselves were slanted to allow for Elyos Players to have a significant advantage in Loot drops from World Bosses; heck there were even several quest that rewarded Elyos with Blues and Asmodians with Greens if not Vendor trash. Non of the above issues seems to be happening here. I've not seen any tables or charts or anything else that can clearly show where the Imperials are being given such a significant advantage versus the Republic Characters.

I do however see some very well thought out points. I may not agree with the final assumption but I do see where there should be some concern. BioWare Devs should be giving us some feedback on this issue and if the assumptions / allegations being made here prove to be true then steps must be taken to correct them as soon as possible.

Since videos submitted rarely seem to be direct comparisons of equal leveled and geared toons, and since none of us can produce Combat Logs to prove concisely when and how much damage is being applied all we can do is guess. I do not want this game being run on guessing. Again... as I continue to PvP in WarZones that include Republic Players, as I continue to fight on Ilum (when that actually happens) I will watch to see if the foe I defeated was beaten by my use of skill, gear, positioning, dumb luck, superior numbers, or an unfair advantage given by cheap game mechanics.

I don't wish to discourage any of you from posting. I hope that someone will find a true smoking gun that can prove with out a doubt that something is wrong. Failing that I will continue to believe that the Devs paid to create this game have the knowledge and ethics to not purposefully **** this game up.
Pre-Ordered the LCE from Best Buy

Kellindell's Avatar


Kellindell
01.30.2012 , 11:46 PM | #722
Quote: Originally Posted by Dhagaz View Post
As I have stated before. I've PvPed a lot in this game. Currently Rank 52.
Not sure if you saw my last reply to you or not, but one person running "tests" as you have no meaning. You yourself listed all of the confound variables that you encounter in such play, and thus you can prove nothing.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dhagaz View Post
In AION there was an obvious bias towards the Elyos.


Quote: Originally Posted by Dhagaz View Post
Maybe I've just not been able to fight many Pubs since until recently most of my WZs have revolved around Hutt Ball and fighting other Imps, but in the few battles I've participated in versus Republic players I've not observed any truly significant disadvantage.
This statement right their kind of lends towards this whole over arcing topic. The reason you are encountering this is because noone wants to play a rebel for all of the reasons in this post.

One thing I missed you state earlier that I didnt address is "an official list of mirror abilities." im guessing you dont play more then one class, or delve into Sith and republic play (again go read my other reply to you). If you did, it would be apparent what skills mirror what.

If you level a Sentinel and maurader for example, you literally get the exact same skills at the exact same levels. And on paper those skills are all exactly the same. You dont need any kind of official list. At level X, Y class getz Z ability on republic, and the sith mirror will get Z ability at level X as well. Unless I missed one somewhere, their is ZERO exceptions to this rule. Talents are exactly the same. Things may have different names, but its all the same.


How you can deny this stuff is beyond me still. These issues dont require combat logs (a comment which confuses me since in a earlier post you claimed project does more damage then shock...a comment I cant quite understand if you believe all of this is null and void since we dont have combat logs. I asked earlier where you evidence was on that and you still havent replied.) anyone who has leveled up multiple characters on both factions can see them plain as day. Thats what all 70 pages of this thread is about.

People have denied crazier things in this world, so I suppose it stands to reason someone could deny something so in their face like this.
Remember Remember, the 18th of January.

Dhagaz's Avatar


Dhagaz
01.31.2012 , 12:53 AM | #723
Quote: Originally Posted by Kellindell View Post
Not sure if you saw my last reply to you or not, but one person running "tests" as you have no meaning. You yourself listed all of the confound variables that you encounter in such play, and thus you can prove nothing.
I don't have to prove a thing. I currently don't believe that there is substance to your hypothesis but I have no interest in disproving it either. The burden is with you and those that believe as you to convince me. Not the other way around.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kellindell View Post
This statement right their kind of lends towards this whole over arcing topic. The reason you are encountering this is because no one wants to play a rebel for all of the reasons in this post.
I'll ignore the fact that none of us have data to support any claim as to why people are not rolling Republic. In the case of me I can honestly say that it's because I like the Bounty Hunter. I wish it was a neutral faction so I could work both sides but it's not so I'm stuck on Empire side. As for most of my guild it was a simple belief that they shared that Force Lightening simply looked better than throwing Pebbles. I'm sure the fact that you gain Dark Side points as a Jedi simply for looking at a romantic interest didn't help either. There are any number of reasons why people in general are not rolling Republic but to simply jump to any one conclusion is short sighted. Do we even have any polls that could actually give a true indication?

Quote: Originally Posted by Kellindell View Post
One thing I missed you state earlier that I didnt address is "an official list of mirror abilities." im guessing you dont play more then one class, or delve into Sith and republic play (again go read my other reply to you). If you did, it would be apparent what skills mirror what.
I'll simply remind you of a vary fitting adage that surmises this mistake of yours quite soundly: "When you assume something you simply make an ***** out of U and Me."

In case you don't get it I do play several classes on both sides. No I do not have a level 50 Republic toon yet, but that is mostly because I'm waiting to find out what server my guild plans to level our Republic Alts on. Also while I love Bounty Hunters and dislike "GlowSticks" it's StarWars and who wouldn't want to at least toy with a Force User for a little bit.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kellindell View Post
If you level a Sentinel and maurader for example, you literally get the exact same skills at the exact same levels. And on paper those skills are all exactly the same. You dont need any kind of official list. At level X, Y class getz Z ability on republic, and the sith mirror will get Z ability at level X as well. Unless I missed one somewhere, their is ZERO exceptions to this rule. Talents are exactly the same. Things may have different names, but its all the same.
Until a Dev comes out and says so this is still conjecture. Most likely correct but unknown. Only the Developers / Official game testers know this for sure. Note I did say that you are most likely correct. It still stands that a Dev coming on here and specifically stating that Project = Shock and explaining how they are mirrored would be nice. Better yet maybe the Dev could clarify why the apparent differences between them if they are supposed to be mirrors.


Quote: Originally Posted by Kellindell View Post
How you can deny this stuff is beyond me still. These issues dont require combat logs (a comment which confuses me since in a earlier post you claimed project does more damage then shock...a comment I cant quite understand if you believe all of this is null and void since we dont have combat logs. I asked earlier where you evidence was on that and you still havent replied.) anyone who has leveled up multiple characters on both factions can see them plain as day. Thats what all 70 pages of this thread is about.
I'm not denying anything. I'm only stating that showing a vid of a low level Sorc casting shock and comparing it to a higher level Consular casting project does not help your case. It causes confusion. On the vid I saw the Consular do more damage than the Sorc. I was not able to see that there was a level difference and did not know as such until someone mentioned it. If you want to prove your point you need to compare apples to apples so to speak. Both toons have to be in same / comparable gear and level for the test to accurately show what if any differences exist. I brought up the whole AION debacle because in AION the Asmodians were able to clearly show with combat logs, and the kind of graphs that only Min-Maxing number crunchers seem to be able to make to show how X ability for an Asmo did significantly less damage than X ability for Elyos. So far the above mentioned vid is the best I've seen, and not a true smoking gun. Another example is that in the current up to date Civil War War Zones I've played I've not seen the extra 10pts of damage the Imperial Turrets are supposed to do. Maybe they've fixed it, Maybe I just didn't notice it, Maybe it just hasn't happened in the instances I've been in. Several of you have voiced some good concerns, its just the manner to prove these concerns to the average person has not been done yet.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kellindell View Post
People have denied crazier things in this world, so I suppose it stands to reason someone could deny something so in their face like this.
Comments like these are not only non constructive, but they are just completely counter productive to your case. You want me to believe that you are a reasonable person and not some crackpot conspiracy theorist then don't insult me for asking you to provide actual proof. This comment places you in the category of being either very frustrated, an *****, or simply a frustrated *****. No matter which you are you lose my interest and the interest of others that don't quite see things your way. Please calm yourself and refrain from it. Hell the no Space Combat Rail people have had far better composure and their plight is far longer than yours.
Pre-Ordered the LCE from Best Buy

Kellindell's Avatar


Kellindell
01.31.2012 , 09:25 AM | #724
By its very definition a hypothesis is a testable question. I never posed a hypothesis. That being said if I had, you cant say you dont believe it, and that it has no substance but then say you have no interest in disproving it, that is all counter intuitive.



Gear has no bearing on the travel time of Project VS shock. Why would it? It seems you have made your decision already and nothing will convince you.


You said only official testers know...I was an official tester, I stated such in my OP when I pre dispelled anyone who thinks the classes arent mirrors. You say you need a Dev to come out and officially tell you? That is like saying you need the President to personally higher you for an entry government job or you wont take it. You are essentially creating a precedent that you know wont happen thus you cannot in your own mind be proved incorrect.

How you can simply deny the fact that the mirror classes get all the same skills at all the same levels with all the exact same numbers, the fact that even their companions are mirrors (IE Khem Val= Qyzen Ves) and they get the same talents at the same exact tiers in the exact same combinations is beyond me. How this is not enough empirical proof for you that you need a Dev to personally tell you blows my mind.

That being said, isnt it proof enough that the Devs have changed Flash bang, and are changing salvation and freezing force to bring them in line with their mirrors? Those posts where they apologize for the over sight in those skills isnt proof positive to you that they are supposed to be mirrored? If they werent why would the devs make those posts and make those changes? That actually isnt enough for you? You need a dev to come out and actually say "Hey guys, just so you know, the 8 classes are actually 4 mirrored classes?

Sadly, this is hard to if impossible to find since the forum wipe when the game launched. When devs were fielding questions about this stuff, posting the AC system etc... it was said over and over again, as well as being said over and over again on the private beta forums where I stated the biggest proof of all was each class sharing one forum. Their was the Trooper/BH forum, the Smuggler/IA forum...and when we did focus phases, we didnt test smuggler, we tested Smuggler/IA. So as you said, official testers would know. I was a tester, and I know.



Yes that is a nice adage...what am I assuming though?


As far as your comments about me personally. You are one of those amazing people that thinks he can tell my composure via forum posts, which simply amazes me. If it makes you feel better to think im at home at my computer raging, then so be it. Generally a non composed person couldnt and or wouldnt create an OP like I did showing that kind of level of organization. But think what you may, you comment on my composure, yet you say those kinds of comments.
Remember Remember, the 18th of January.

Volkkor's Avatar


Volkkor
01.31.2012 , 09:45 AM | #725
Yeah so I went to make a Counsler the other day. Played him to lvl 2 before realizing how annoying project was in comparison to shock. Like a 1.5 second delay on damage as opposed to as soon as i smash my face into the keyboard. Stuff like that really needs to change.
Darth Volkkor Raidboss
Sith Sorcerer
The Twin Spears

Ravanofdarkness's Avatar


Ravanofdarkness
01.31.2012 , 09:52 AM | #726
Totally agree with the OP on this Thread, they need to something about us "The Republic Players" having such underwhelming Powers compared to our Mirror Class on the Imperial Side.
I Am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End.

Kellindell's Avatar


Kellindell
01.31.2012 , 10:03 AM | #727
Remember Remember, the 18th of January.

Raja_Asenn's Avatar


Raja_Asenn
01.31.2012 , 10:11 AM | #728
Assassins get a purple swirl visual effect when Exploit Weakness procs, Shadows don't get a visual effect when Find Weakness procs.

It's a big deal. Looking for a tiny green icon with a lightsaber on it in a sea of other tiny green icons with a lightsaber on it is painful.
Jung Ma :: The Guardians

richardya's Avatar


richardya
01.31.2012 , 10:21 AM | #729
Deleted - What the guy on top of this post said.

For those who do not know. The proc tells when you can backstab (Maul, Shadowstrike) without the force cost being overwhelming. This proc is huge, when it is not active you should not backstab. In PvP catching sight of the tiny icon is difficult and this was a complaint I had with the class.

I knew other classes had visual notifications of procs but could not believe they gave a visual to our mirror as well.

Valsdad's Avatar


Valsdad
01.31.2012 , 10:27 AM | #730
Quote: Originally Posted by Raja_Asenn View Post
Assassins get a purple swirl visual effect when Exploit Weakness procs, Shadows don't get a visual effect when Find Weakness procs.

It's a big deal. Looking for a tiny green icon with a lightsaber on it in a sea of other tiny green icons with a lightsaber on it is painful.
Operatives HoT's are a consistent probe floating around the player, while scoundrel hots are a probe that comes once and injects medicine. It then flies away.

If you're the only Operative healer, it's very easy to simply look at other player's character to see if they still have your HoT.

If you're the only Scoundrel healer, you have to cycle through targets and look for your HoT icon to know they still have your HoT.

^ This sounds minor, but it is a very annoying disparity.
Overtrebel, a right and proper scoundrel