Regarding their duel in EP3, tell if I got this right: Windu beats Sidious in the duel, and manages to reflect his lightning back and mess his face all up. Then anakin steps in and betrays him.

 

Is that right?

Sidious was playing everyone.

 

He was working Anakin and got him where he wanted him.

Yeah that's how I always saw it. In "my version", when I saw the movie, I felt that sidious was pretty much in control of the dual. He could've ended it at any time but needed anakin there to present him with the choice of who to help. Lightning face? Nah, that was just a trick as well. He made it look like the lightning melted his face, but really he was just dropping the disguise that hid his darkside-cancer.

 

Then again, I never thought Luke would be "the most powerful jedi ever", but he's always at the top of everyone's list.

As for his disfigured face it's an open debate.

 

The most public opinion is he was scarred when his lightning was reflected back at him.

 

Some believe that was his true image which he was hiding from the world using Sith alchemy and sorcery - in the duel he needed all his power so he dropped the disguise as it was no longer necessary.

 

On the subject, taken from Wookiepedia:

 

"There are problems with both these ideas: The idea that he was physically damaged by the Force lightning doesn't match Return of the Jedi. Luke was being hit by Force lightning for some time, and he wasn't scarred like that. On the other hand, if Palpatine was using an Illusion-assisted Disguised check… he couldn't possibly keep it up continually. Moreover, Illusion is a mind-influencing Force power. It doesn't work on droids or recordings (in other words, someone might notice that he doesn't look the same in recorded speeches), nor would it work when projecting a holographic image across the galaxy. Finally, one would wonder why he maintained the illusion in his earlier holographic appearances as Darth Sidious. It would seem more prudent to "turn it off" to preserve the Palpatine identity."

―Gary M. Sarli

 

Rather than side with one or the other theory, Sarli gave this answer:

 

 

"Palpatine, who has delved extensively into Sith lore, was using an almost-forgotten technique to hide his true self."

―Gary M. Sarli

most still believe Mace had him beat..

I think Sidious was in control the whole time. His 'defeat' was only a carefully-timed act.

 

Charisma. Not a useless stat!

I was stating a fact my post is not an opinion. He was playing everyone the ENTIRE movie..

 

Sidious is a genious...

Personally I think Mace had him beat, with a lightsaber I just dont see sidius winning. However I do agree that the entire fight was staged and that palpatine knew he couldnt win so included that into his plan. Now my question is this was mace blasted out the window or did he jump? Personally I think he jumped

most still believe Mace had him beat..

 

and most believe him to still be alive.

and most believe him to still be alive.

 

He won't be. Sith can survive things that would otherwise kill them just by feeding on pain, anger and hate.

 

Vader is good example, he should have died on Mustafar, he should have died when he impaled himself and there were a few other times in the EU when he clearly wouldn't have survived without some other force keeping him alive.

 

Sion is the most extreme example.

 

Maul's an example too.

 

However Jedi cannot do this, because they are Lightside and emotionless, so they die.

He won't be. Sith can survive things that would otherwise kill them just by feeding on pain, anger and hate.

 

Vader is good example, he should have died on Mustafar, he should have died when he impaled himself and there were a few other times in the EU when he clearly wouldn't have survived without some other force keeping him alive.

 

Sion is the most extreme example.

 

Maul's an example too.

 

However Jedi cannot do this, because they are Lightside and emotionless, so they die.

 

Tell that to the hardcore fans of Windu.

Regarding the actual duel, Lucas confirmed in RotS 2005 commentary that Windu had won the duel, then Sidious feigned defeat so Anakin would intervene and betray the Jedi, Sidious then dropped the act and killed Windu, much to Anakin's surprise.

However Jedi cannot do this, because they are Lightside and emotionless, so they die.

I think you've misunderstood some of the things they say in the Jedi code completely. "There is no emotion, there is peace" tries to alert aspiring Jedi of the dangers of overwhelming emotions that one can hardly control like fear, anger and rage. Compassion is a vital trait that every Jedi is required to have. To claim they are without emotion is ludicrous.

Edited January 30, 2012 by AscendantOps

Note obi-wans reaction in episode one for example

He won't be. Sith can survive things that would otherwise kill them just by feeding on pain, anger and hate.

 

Vader is good example, he should have died on Mustafar, he should have died when he impaled himself and there were a few other times in the EU when he clearly wouldn't have survived without some other force keeping him alive.

 

Sion is the most extreme example.

 

Maul's an example too.

 

However Jedi cannot do this, because they are Lightside and emotionless, so they die.

 

Oh... we're talking about that kind of canon...

Regarding the actual duel, Lucas confirmed in RotS 2005 commentary that Windu had won the duel, then Sidious feigned defeat so Anakin would intervene and betray the Jedi, Sidious then dropped the act and killed Windu, much to Anakin's surprise.

 

This is 100% correct. Something people seem to never know is that Mace Windu was known as the greatest lightsaber duelest of his era.

 

Sidious, clearly far more powerful was not defeated, but out matched with the lightsaber. Mace was doomed the minute he walked into that room, no matter how good he was with the lightsaber.

As for his disfigured face it's an open debate.

 

The most public opinion is he was scarred when his lightning was reflected back at him.

 

Some believe that was his true image which he was hiding from the world using Sith alchemy and sorcery - in the duel he needed all his power so he dropped the disguise as it was no longer necessary.

 

On the subject, taken from Wookiepedia:

 

"There are problems with both these ideas: The idea that he was physically damaged by the Force lightning doesn't match Return of the Jedi. Luke was being hit by Force lightning for some time, and he wasn't scarred like that. On the other hand, if Palpatine was using an Illusion-assisted Disguised check… he couldn't possibly keep it up continually. Moreover, Illusion is a mind-influencing Force power. It doesn't work on droids or recordings (in other words, someone might notice that he doesn't look the same in recorded speeches), nor would it work when projecting a holographic image across the galaxy. Finally, one would wonder why he maintained the illusion in his earlier holographic appearances as Darth Sidious. It would seem more prudent to "turn it off" to preserve the Palpatine identity."

―Gary M. Sarli

 

Rather than side with one or the other theory, Sarli gave this answer:

 

"Palpatine, who has delved extensively into Sith lore, was using an almost-forgotten technique to hide his true self."

―Gary M. Sarli

 

Knowledge of the EU helps alot with this.

 

Sidious's extreme use of the Dark side in the Mace Windu fight is what drained his body. He reached levels of the dark side no sith have ever reached.

 

This destroys and corrupts the body. Sidious discovered immortally in the force by jumping his "soul" from body to body. And had a cloning factory that produced lifeless husts of his own form.

 

When his body could no longer with stand the force of the dark side or he would die, he jumped to a new younger body of himself.

This is 100% correct. Something people seem to never know is that Mace Windu was known as the greatest lightsaber duelest of his era.

 

Sidious, clearly far more powerful was not defeated, but out matched with the lightsaber. Mace was doomed the minute he walked into that room, no matter how good he was with the lightsaber.

 

I really have no idea how you came to that conclusion. Since it's been confirmed by the lord of Star Wars canon himself, George Lucas, that Windu beat him, it's easy to see the lightning was Sidious's last ditch effort to save himself, which failed miserably. Windu won completely and utterly.

 

His manipulations, along with the luck of Anakin's timely arrival, saved him, not his power. To think he lost on purpose or some such nonsense is foolish.

 

This isn't a bad thing though, because that's what made Sidious the best Sith in Star Wars history. When compared to the (presumably) second best Sith, Emperor Vitiate, you can see that a few decades of Palpatine's manipulation gave him control of the entirety of the galaxy, while 1000 years of planning and war only gave Vitiate power over about half the galaxy. He's pretty damn impressive, even though he did get his butt handed to him.

I really have no idea how you came to that conclusion. Since it's been confirmed by the lord of Star Wars canon himself, George Lucas, that Windu beat him, it's easy to see the lightning was Sidious's last ditch effort to save himself, which failed miserably. Windu won completely and utterly.

 

His manipulations, along with the luck of Anakin's timely arrival, saved him, not his power. To think he lost on purpose or some such nonsense is foolish.

 

This isn't a bad thing though, because that's what made Sidious the best Sith in Star Wars history. When compared to the (presumably) second best Sith, Emperor Vitiate, you can see that a few decades of Palpatine's manipulation gave him control of the entirety of the galaxy, while 1000 years of planning and war only gave Vitiate power over about half the galaxy. He's pretty damn impressive, even though he did get his butt handed to him.

 

I don't know what your disagreeing with here, I clearly stated Windu won, and is the greatest duelist of the era, making hard to imagine him losing.

 

Sidious is not nearly as powerful with the saber but far far more powerful within the force itself.

 

While out-dueled, he was not defeated, and between his ability to manipulate pretty much everyone and his force abilities I do not see how it can be viewed otherwise.

 

He tells Skywalker he is Sith. He clearly knew that Anakin would turn him in and send Jedi to arrest him. He used this to place the Jedi into a bad situation to turn Anakin to the darkside. Sidious whole plan to take the republic revolved around Anakin from the day he was born.

I really have no idea how you came to that conclusion. Since it's been confirmed by the lord of Star Wars canon himself, George Lucas, that Windu beat him, it's easy to see the lightning was Sidious's last ditch effort to save himself, which failed miserably. Windu won completely and utterly.

 

His manipulations, along with the luck of Anakin's timely arrival, saved him, not his power. To think he lost on purpose or some such nonsense is foolish.

 

Er, what? Lucas in his own words stated Sidious won the duel, but Windu stood no chance against Sidious in the overall picture.

Hell if you read the RotS novel, his lightsaber bent under the pressure of the lightning, he was losing his grip on his lightsaber and was going to die either way.

 

Both Anakin and Windu fell for his 'loss' of power after lowering his lightning barrage, he even used his deformed face as an almost prop, to drive home the idea he couldn't fight back, Anakin then intervened and Sidious immediately killed Windu.

 

Hell I would wager he could have won before the duel even began, for Fisto, Tiin, Windu and Kolar, though great Jedi Masters, would not have been able to hold off of Sidious' lightning if he immediately attacked them with it, the whole point wasn't to kill them all though, he needed at least one alive, hence him quickly dispatching the other three, what he didn't count on though, was just how great of a duellist Windu really was.

However Jedi cannot do this, because they are Lightside and emotionless, so they die.

 

Problem with this line of thinking is what made Mace the best duelist of the era. He used the lightsaber combat form that is made powerful by skirting SOOO close to the dark side that you get the benefits of using severe emotions, but don't actually give into the dark side. Basically, Mace actually allowed himself to enjoy fighting so much, without focusing on, or letting himself, kill the enemy without being forced to do so. Mace could have easily rebounded from serious trauma by focusing on a rematch and relishing that thought, something normal Jedi cannot do.

 

I don't know what your disagreeing with here, I clearly stated Windu won, and is the greatest duelist of the era, making hard to imagine him losing.

 

Sidious is not nearly as powerful with the saber but far far more powerful within the force itself.

 

While out-dueled, he was not defeated, and between his ability to manipulate pretty much everyone and his force abilities I do not see how it can be viewed otherwise.

 

He tells Skywalker he is Sith. He clearly knew that Anakin would turn him in and send Jedi to arrest him. He used this to place the Jedi into a bad situation to turn Anakin to the darkside. Sidious whole plan to take the republic revolved around Anakin from the day he was born.

 

This is one reason I wish they would have done the prequels differently. Instead of focusing on Anakin turning to Vader, they should have shown the progression of Plageuis->Palpatine->Maul/Vader... Seeing as Darth Plagueis the Wise died only days before Palpatine became Supreme Chancellor, that means he SHOULD have been in the movie. If I remember correctly, Plagueis is the one who told Palpatine that he wanted to do away with Darth Bane's "Rule of Two" so he allowed Palpatine to mentor Maul, while he was still teaching Palpatine.

 

Darth Plagueis was also the one who taught Palpatine an important lesson that they should have shown, "You must begin by gaining power over yourself; then another; then a group, an order, a world, a species, a group of species… finally, the galaxy itself." Thus teaching Palpatine how to plot and plan every detail of every action so that step by step he would control everything. He meant to rule the galaxy WITH Palpatine, but as with the norm, Palpatine killed him.

 

If they would have shown the first 45 minutes being Darth Plagueis teaching him, and him teaching Maul, THEN introduce Anakin (and cut pod racing and Jar Jar and all that), then the whole Trade Federation thing would have made much more sense, we would know exactly what we are watching, etc etc... and would have led into the original movies better... Seeing as how Obi-Wan was 'supposed' to have been taught by Yoda, and Anakin was supposed to be more of a brother to Obi-Wan than a pupil, including having hung around Tatooine more (having known Owen and all of them MUCH better)...

I think it goes like this:

 

1. Jedi confront Palps

2. Palps kills the trash and engages Windu

3. Windu outmatches Palps in saber combat and thus is the victor of the duel

4. Palps resorts to lightning which turns out to be too overwhelming for Windu to withstand (he was about to lose the grip after all) but also melts his face out of severe use of dark side power which compromises his alchemy disguise

5. Palps senses Anakin entering the room, stops the barrage on purpose and mind****s Anakin by trying to look like helpless old man who was disigured by merciless Jedi

 

Going by that logic Windu won the saber duel but was outmatched in every other aspect as Palps easily turned initial defeat into victory (he didn't even need the saber in the first place).

 

Then again I might be wrong.

Palpatine wasn't disfigured by rebounded lightning. He casted Force Drain on reverse without realizing it.

What if Sidious let him win? Lol I could imagine this in his head.

 

"Lolz what a noob, I know i'll toy with him and let him win"

 

"Awww..guess he beat me...oh wait...lighting!"

 

*Zap Zap*

 

"Oh wait here comes Anakin, i'll make Windu look like a dick."

 

*Anakin cuts off Mace's hand*

 

"Power mother ****a, I have it!"

 

*Blows Mace away with lighting*

 

"Haha, what a scrub he actually thought he had a chance...am I a bastard or what?"

Edited January 31, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

On reflection, it is fairly neat to apply SWTOR to the movies though... The palpatine/mace fight is actually the player playing a Sorcerer and entering dialogue with Mace (an elite) and 3 gimps (weak/normal)... within a second the three gimps are down, then the true fight begins...

 

Or is it a party of 4 come into Palpatine's chamber, have dialogue, then they have to fight a champion mob... prolly a world boss hehe... Any other places in the movies?

 

I just think everyone tries to apply canon/movies/books to the game... what would happen if we did the reverse?