The Expertise stat has to go...

you would be right if pvp meant only killing ppl, fortunately in swtor pvp, all 3 warzones are objective based and not kill based so no pvp doesn't get harder.

even if you lose a warzone you still get some valor/commendation. so the progression is linear. and like i said it gets easier as you progress. guess what happens when you lose in pve you get nothing.

i can even break it down further, in pve you have to find 3 other ppl willing to do the hm flashpoint, what if you can't find the ppl? in pvp you just queue.

or you manage to actually find the ppl to do hm flashpoint, but nothing drops for you. now do you see?

Gear inflation isn't created from the start, do you really understand the concept? Of course there's not a large difference in gear right now, the game just began.

A year from now, two, once expansions and further PvE content comes in gear will inflate, to make the PvE more challenging. That's why the PvP stat exists at all. No?

I'm... not sure what the problem is. They still did that content, regardless of the gear they used to start with. At the very beginning you can use whatever you want, the very early PvP and PvE gear is equivalent and Wards aren't a factor.

The goal of the gear system currently in place is to keep PvP gear and PvE gear competitive in PvP. It also allows progression in PvE content to continue because the Expertise stat does nothing for PvE, thus you have to do previous PvE content to continue.

The Ward system does this as well, but without causing PvP gear to eclipse people who are brand new to PvP'ing... while also rewarding those who have been PvP'ing for some time. With minor stat boosts, and potentially more alluring Set Bonuses.

That last statement is the most is most important. Expertise gear currently balances itself against Raid Gear in general, and keeps things competitive on that front. The problem is it also creates an enormous gap between those without Raid gear OR PvP gear, fresh new faces to the PvP scene.

PvP should not be a battle of gear, it should be a battle of skill. The Ward system promotes skillful play by keeping the playing field equal, regardless of if you PvE or PvP.

Wait, what? That's the exact opposite of what this does. At what point are you forced to do anything with the Ward system?

You can PvP if you like to PvP, and even as a fresh face on the scene you aren't at that big of a disadvantage gear wise. Not vs PvP gear, or vs PvE gear.

If you like to PvE, you have to progress... you have to do the content, and get the ward, and continue.

In either of those scenarios, how is one or the other being forced on you?

Let me restate what I said previously:

The Ward system does this as well, but without causing PvP gear to eclipse people who are brand new to PvP'ing... while also rewarding those who have been PvP'ing for some time. With minor stat boosts, and potentially more alluring Set Bonuses.

If I want to PvP... I'll PvP, if I want to PvE, I have to progress. What's the problem? I'm not forced to do anything. I do everything by choice. The current gear system is the main culprit here, forcing you to get Expertise gear. No?

In the end, can we all just agree that those who want the expertise stat just want an inherent advantage because they feel like they've put the time in and deserve it?

Just like those who want it taken away without something else put in place, want an advantage in PvP because they obviously have better gear from PvE?

Just so we're clear on where I stand: I don't like expertise, but I recognize the fact that PvE raid gear is better and without some system in place to balance the field it would be an issue.

My goal is to keep PvP competitive and based on skill, knowledge, or teamwork. I don't want it based purely on time spent PvP'ing OR PvE'ing. I don't want someone to defeat someone else just because of the items they're wearing.

I also support the inclusion of Realm Abilities. If you're not familiar with that system, it's a PvP based talent tree. The higher your renown rank, the more points you have to spend in that tree.

That tree can have anything from minor stat boosts, to active abilities. (eg: A second CC break, or something).

This gives another incentive to get a higher PvP rank, and put time in... but if introduced and balanced correctly, is not an issue.

No, because those same complaints about pve vs pvp exist today. The proliferation of expertise is timed based though.

The entry barrier to be successful at pvp will increase as time goes forward. The entry barrier for pve will remain the same.

And while yes, pvp is objective based, as time progresses those objectives will be harder for new players to accomplish because they will fighting against expertised geared players compared today where most people are on fairly equal footing.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=230862

Expertise, fixed. Check it out.

DAOC, Warhammer. I didn't play Aion long enough to know for sure, but did it have a PvP stat?

DAOC and Warhammer were not based purely on PvP. Warhammer unfortunately didn't have a very expansive PvE following, but it did have PvE.

WAR's Tomb of the Vulture Lord was a very challenging dungeon, and even though it was only 6 people I'd consider it raid difficulty. I mean, SWTOR has 8-man raids. At what point do we not call it a raid?

Prior to their end-game changes, there was a 24-man PvE dungeon that you opened when you captured the enemy's city.

That said, WAR had the Ward system, which I've explained in detail on the previous page, and in a lengthy thread above.

DAOC on the other hand was very heavily PvE based.

Nobody wanting to do an instance is a problem that's been around in all mmos, that's what guilds help take care of. If nobody wanted to pvp and you did you'd run into the same problems, games ending bc there werent enough people. Finding groups isn't enough of a hardship to justify the argument.

They want to keep the gear separate. I quit wow for a number of reasons, but the primary reason was that you either had to have an awesome arena team or pve gear to compete in PvP. I got wotlk late, and all my friends had geared up already and I was having trouble getting on teams or into raids bc I was a fresh 80. So...they took a dump on casual players at the time...it got changed back eventually, but I was irritated enough not to resub (that and other rl reasons). I have a feeling bio doesn't want that to happen here. They don't want you to have to pve in order to compete in PvP and then get the PvP gear later.

there is no skill in getting PvP gear its luck in the bags


if the gear was based on skill it would actually mean something but it doesn't because some baddie can get lucky and instantly he thinks hes great, because his gear covers his lack of skill

that's the point of relevance, i can only go by what's present. how can you be so sure BW will make gear in a way that inflation occurs so badly? i mean how does pvp gear even come out exactly? by design they have to match it up with pve progression. it's not some arbitrary process.

while i couldn't agree with you more, the fact of the matter is this is a MMO. while pvp should be skill only, it wont get there until everyone has the same gear. i understand that you want an even playing field right from the start, but then it would be a completely different game like guild wars was. this is just pve progression in pvp form.

the entire ward system imo is based on if you want to pvp great you can just pvp and if the pvers want to pvp great equal grounds.

but if i want to mainly pvp and do some pve the system is completely backwards isn't it? it favors pve. if you pved you are doing exactly what you want to do and just jump into pvp without any problems right? let's say a new pve tier came out and a new pvp tier came out. a new player can easily just jump in the new pvp gear correct? while skipping the 1st pvp tier? but it doesn't work in pve right? if you pvp and want to do current content pve you can't you have to start from the beginning. that is the issue.

here is another way of saying this, in the ward system, it's just better to pve because then you can do both pve and pvp, however if you want to just pvp then maybe get some pve done you are screwed.

Because you just bought the game or leveled a new character? Derp?

Yeah i've been saying this since launch and i agree with the OP. The expertise stat doesn't really accomplish anything, and only has detrimental effects for anybody else trying to PvP.

If you removed the PvP stat then everybody would be on the same playing field right from the start, rather than waiting for everybody to gear up to battlemaster before they get evenly matched. Regular stats on gear can still give an edge over the people who are in greens, and this would allow people to matched up with lower levels again without being godlike in damage mitigation.

People would still strive for PvP gear as long as it looks unique and ****** and had a stat progression similar to PvE gear. Looks is something people always strive to get in MMOs, and keeping PvP gear looking unique even after expertise is removed ensures people are going to continue to PvP to acquire it. This also lets people know who PvPs a lot and who doesn't. There aren't any negative effects from this.

So really in the end all expertise does is make it impossible for anybody without PvP gear to have a fair chance in PVP, which basically just rewards people who got to 50 earliest. The inflation in damage output and mitigation from expertise hurts the PvP game more than it helps the player. Removing this stat will only have beneficial effects on the community.