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Why Endgame is lackluster, and what Bioware should do.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
Why Endgame is lackluster, and what Bioware should do.

Yograin's Avatar


Yograin
01.24.2012 , 08:00 AM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by Rosenwas View Post
Originally Posted by jamiem

karazhan > gruul > magtheridon's lair > ssc > tk > mh > bt > sw was the best progression flow of any mmo i have played and the difficulty tuning was spot on.
Except Gruul was so overtuned it had to be nerfed few weeks after release and you had to stack ranged/mages. To even get there you had to finish a (heroic 5m)questline which also has been removed with the nerfs.

Same attunement was later removed for SSC (for which you had to kill Gruul) and TK where it was neccesary to kill Magtheridon, who had to be nerfed 4x for even top 100 guilds to be able to kill it! Last boss in SSC(Vashj) was bugged to degree it was unkillable for months. Last boss TK(Kaelthas) was so overtuned/hard it was the same. Attunement for Hyjal had to be changed the week first guild should go there as it was bugged and only allowed for 1/25 person to attune every week... oh and the SSC trash on 45 min respawn where it took 35 to clear. JOY spot on difficulty!!!

BT on the other hand was cleared the first week it released and had to be made harder where again it was cleared next week by guilds who could afford serious raid stacking in melee for mother shazrah. Others had to wait for nerf. Story for itself were Illidan and Reliquary where Warrior tank was hugely favoured against Paladin and Druid due to Shear-block mechanic. Attunements were again removed later because they have been destroying guild raids.

SWP was the only raid instance where I cant remember any serious issue with difficulty/bugs etc. So please explain to me how TBC was tuned and spot on difficulty.
Only way I see it you either played for Nihilum/DeathnTaxes/Method/LastResort/Forte/Celebrity guilds OR you did not experience those raids firsthand. TBC was tuned horribly and had to be retuned way before the usual nerfs when new instance releases!

pyrobot's Avatar


pyrobot
01.24.2012 , 08:10 AM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by Hanscholo View Post
I detest modes. Raids should be difficult, but not extremely hard.

One mode, for everyone.
I get your point, but then there goes the player base. I'm pretty certain there's probably a large percentage of the player base that is super-casual, and will probably only see the first few bosses of NM ops before the next tier comes out.

Yograin's Avatar


Yograin
01.24.2012 , 08:19 AM | #43
To make a difference between HM Rakata and NM Rakata they could make NM Rakata drop with augment slot. Or add a NM item drop which would add the slot into the vendor Rakata item. Rakata Augmenter would only work for Rakata and lesser gear so further items couldnt be made better with these by then old drops.

JamieM's Avatar


JamieM
01.24.2012 , 10:06 AM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by Yograin View Post
Except Gruul was so overtuned it had to be nerfed few weeks after release and you had to stack ranged/mages. To even get there you had to finish a (heroic 5m)questline which also has been removed with the nerfs.

Same attunement was later removed for SSC (for which you had to kill Gruul) and TK where it was neccesary to kill Magtheridon, who had to be nerfed 4x for even top 100 guilds to be able to kill it! Last boss in SSC(Vashj) was bugged to degree it was unkillable for months. Last boss TK(Kaelthas) was so overtuned/hard it was the same. Attunement for Hyjal had to be changed the week first guild should go there as it was bugged and only allowed for 1/25 person to attune every week... oh and the SSC trash on 45 min respawn where it took 35 to clear. JOY spot on difficulty!!!

BT on the other hand was cleared the first week it released and had to be made harder where again it was cleared next week by guilds who could afford serious raid stacking in melee for mother shazrah. Others had to wait for nerf. Story for itself were Illidan and Reliquary where Warrior tank was hugely favoured against Paladin and Druid due to Shear-block mechanic. Attunements were again removed later because they have been destroying guild raids.

SWP was the only raid instance where I cant remember any serious issue with difficulty/bugs etc. So please explain to me how TBC was tuned and spot on difficulty.
Only way I see it you either played for Nihilum/DeathnTaxes/Method/LastResort/Forte/Celebrity guilds OR you did not experience those raids firsthand. TBC was tuned horribly and had to be retuned way before the usual nerfs when new instance releases!
You make it out as if those raids were impossible/ broken when they first came out - they were not. Those issues all got cleared up within the first few weeks (Vashj was not unkillable for months at all, all the issue was was that the green crap she spewed in her last phase was excessive to the point that the raid had to watch where they stepped and not rely on heals to survive - she was much easier than say Kael'thas who truly was a HARD boss to beat) of their release, they were diificult, but if you were organised, figured out the group mechanic and payed attention you beat them.

I did play for a successful raiding guild on Magtheridon EU but guilds all over Europe and NA were beating those bosses pre-nerf, not just mine. The attunement system was awesome (once they ironed out the issues) and created a real sense of achievement before you even entered the instances - a kind of epic quest line to allow you entry to the that raiding tier - usually culminating with obtaining items that dropped from the the last boss of the previous tier. The Kael'thas encounter was one of the most original and challenging fights I have experienced, taking us over two weeks to defeat and lasting for about 10-15 minutes - however the pay-off was incredible and made everyone feel like they had really achieved something.

The difficulty tiered system is merely a direct result of dumbing down content which not only ultimately killed competitive raiding on WoW but is also dumbing down variety within encounters themselves as all you do with diifculty modes it seems is ratchet up HPs and damage and lower enrage timers - it's just depressing and doesn't really give you much excitement about what may be next.

Asmiroth's Avatar


Asmiroth
01.24.2012 , 10:39 AM | #45
Quote:
If Bioware wants hardcore raiding guilds, the fights have to be difficult to master, (3-4 more mechanics then they have now), and tuned up 10-15% from where they are now.
I took this as the TLDR portion as it basically sums up the problem you're trying to point out.

I've been following SW for years and I can't remember a single time that they stated that this was one of their goals. They have harped high and mighty about story and character choice (basically 1-49 which is admittedly very good) and I've yet to see a single post about their end-game intentions or target audience.

Maybe they're happy not having them?

Sheridyn's Avatar


Sheridyn
01.24.2012 , 11:22 AM | #46
I agree with the OP, the normal raids are the only ones that strike the right balance. Bioware's attitude toward difficulty is "increase the HP and damage of the boss". Hard and Nightmare modes are no more of a challenge than Normal (mechanically), just more of a gear check. More specifically, DPS/healers will get just get 1-shot by certain abilities on Nightmare 16-man unless you've got enough health. The raids haven't been tuned properly at all, and this is the problem that Bioware have run into by trying to provide 6 levels of difficulty.

Trion's approach in Rift was 1 difficulty level for raid content, and to nerf/rebalance content as they noticed a certain number of guilds getting stuck during progression. Suffice to say, even Greenscale's Blight was more enjoyable than EV. But that's not just because it had one difficulty level - fights were just more complex mechanically.

Yummymango's Avatar


Yummymango
01.24.2012 , 11:23 AM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Asmiroth View Post
I took this as the TLDR portion as it basically sums up the problem you're trying to point out.

I've been following SW for years and I can't remember a single time that they stated that this was one of their goals. They have harped high and mighty about story and character choice (basically 1-49 which is admittedly very good) and I've yet to see a single post about their end-game intentions or target audience.

Maybe they're happy not having them?
I agree with you but my question is what kind of content we should expect in future?

Lamdizzle's Avatar


Lamdizzle
01.24.2012 , 11:31 AM | #48
I agree that NM should be very challenging. HM ops should also be more difficult, I agree with this too. But you all do realize this game is barely a month old and they have already added new content along with fixing most of the major bugs. Give em some slack. I swear none of you were present at WoW's launch and just expect far to much. Get your expectations in check plain n simple. This game is literally JUST over a month old. IMO they are doing a great job, there is ALWAYS room for improvement but this is a great game and has been an amazing launch packed with content...end game content aswell. WoW didnt have 1 raid at launch let alone two. I agree with many points the OP makes but i also think not many are giving BW the credit they deserve and just expect perfection from the get go. Unrealistic expectations plain n simple...

Zeppelin's Avatar


Zeppelin
01.24.2012 , 11:37 AM | #49
The game has been out a month. They're still fixing more pressing issues.
Size matters not!

The first rule about Jar Jar is we don't talk about Jar Jar.

Zeppelin's Avatar


Zeppelin
01.24.2012 , 11:38 AM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by Yograin View Post
Except Gruul was so overtuned it had to be nerfed few weeks after release and you had to stack ranged/mages. To even get there you had to finish a (heroic 5m)questline which also has been removed with the nerfs.

Same attunement was later removed for SSC (for which you had to kill Gruul) and TK where it was neccesary to kill Magtheridon, who had to be nerfed 4x for even top 100 guilds to be able to kill it! Last boss in SSC(Vashj) was bugged to degree it was unkillable for months. Last boss TK(Kaelthas) was so overtuned/hard it was the same. Attunement for Hyjal had to be changed the week first guild should go there as it was bugged and only allowed for 1/25 person to attune every week... oh and the SSC trash on 45 min respawn where it took 35 to clear. JOY spot on difficulty!!!

BT on the other hand was cleared the first week it released and had to be made harder where again it was cleared next week by guilds who could afford serious raid stacking in melee for mother shazrah. Others had to wait for nerf. Story for itself were Illidan and Reliquary where Warrior tank was hugely favoured against Paladin and Druid due to Shear-block mechanic. Attunements were again removed later because they have been destroying guild raids.

SWP was the only raid instance where I cant remember any serious issue with difficulty/bugs etc. So please explain to me how TBC was tuned and spot on difficulty.
Only way I see it you either played for Nihilum/DeathnTaxes/Method/LastResort/Forte/Celebrity guilds OR you did not experience those raids firsthand. TBC was tuned horribly and had to be retuned way before the usual nerfs when new instance releases!
That's how it was when SSC and TK were initially released. Within a month, most of those changes were already made and the vast majority of people experiencing those dungeons never encountered. The same will be true for the problems in TORs current end game.
Size matters not!

The first rule about Jar Jar is we don't talk about Jar Jar.