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Guard Needs Fixing Now, or Why We Have So Many Burst Damage Whines

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Guard Needs Fixing Now, or Why We Have So Many Burst Damage Whines

DirtyDiggler's Avatar


DirtyDiggler
01.23.2012 , 04:00 PM | #191
wow-tards,,, what do you expect?

yukirshiro's Avatar


yukirshiro
01.23.2012 , 04:01 PM | #192
Quote: Originally Posted by Lazorous View Post
You are claiming they are absolutely, without a doubt, balancing the burst damage around Guard.
Balancing with guard in mind, along with other stuff? Sure I am. And it's completely obvious.

If I said "they are balancing burst damage around HP pools and healing" would you also demand I provide a dev saying that? "I DEMAND YOU PROVIDE PROOF THAT IT ISN'T JUST A TOTAL COINCIDENCE THAT I CAN BURST FOR 5k AND SOMOENE HAS 15k HP!"?

Nobody says blindingly obvious things like that because people would think they were stupid for even saying it.

Baudrillard's Avatar


Baudrillard
01.23.2012 , 04:02 PM | #193
Quote: Originally Posted by yukirshiro View Post
Have fun, because you're clearly still not understanding the issue. The issue isn't organization. BW can balance to any situation, including organized play.

The side effect of that is unorganized play becomes completely unbalanced. The op nerfs show they are clearly NOT willing to balance only to organized play.
From my experience, unorganized vs unorganized play is ok. People die all the time.

Unorganized vs Organized? Honestly, no guard of the world or its removal will save the unorganized team.

Organized vs. organized? We can wait till some organized team players will say something about this.


What's the whole discussion about at the moment?

yukirshiro's Avatar


yukirshiro
01.23.2012 , 04:04 PM | #194
Quote: Originally Posted by Lymain View Post
I just want to OP to admit that he is really hoping to be able to focus down the healer first instead of the tank, rendering the tank's extra HP and mitigation impotent.
Not at all. My suggestions about improving active tanking are all aimed at making the tank better at mitigating damage on others.

If you mean I don't like a system where you 100% have to kill the tank before the guarded player 100% of the time then yeah, I guess I don't like that system. More tactical options are better than fewer.

A tank's role in PVP should be at stopping others from taking damage through active intervention. I would be happy if taunts actually forced you to target the tank for a period of time, for instance.

shon_tsu's Avatar


shon_tsu
01.23.2012 , 04:06 PM | #195
Why are you wasting your burst on the very clear and obviously guarded target?

Lymain's Avatar


Lymain
01.23.2012 , 04:06 PM | #196
Quote: Originally Posted by yukirshiro View Post
A tank's role in PVP should be at stopping others from taking damage through active intervention. I would be happy if taunts actually forced you to target the tank for a period of time, for instance.
Have you ever played a game with that mechanic? It's pretty unfun, imo.

And plenty of people have explained how you don't absolutely have to kill the tank first with the current system, but you ignored them

Lazorous's Avatar


Lazorous
01.23.2012 , 04:08 PM | #197
Quote: Originally Posted by yukirshiro View Post
Balancing with guard in mind, along with other stuff? Sure I am. And it's completely obvious.

If I said "they are balancing burst damage around HP pools and healing" would you also demand I provide a dev saying that? "I DEMAND YOU PROVIDE PROOF THAT IT ISN'T JUST A TOTAL COINCIDENCE THAT I CAN BURST FOR 5k AND SOMOENE HAS 15k HP!"?

Nobody says blindingly obvious things like that because people would think they were stupid for even saying it.
You're grabbing at threads here. Your examples are so off base it's becoming laughable.

Balancing around HP Pools and Healing is NOT the same as balancing around ONE ability. If BW came out and said a global revamp of the dmg system was necessary to counter the effects of increased HP due to new Gear for EVERYONE, then that's understandable. But to assume they would revamp the system just for ONE ability, is not obvious. The truth is, you have no proof. You're making this stuff up and claiming it to be truth, because you WANT it to be true... You fall in line with what is known as conspiracy theorists.

When you can't recognize what is fact and what is speculation you're borderline delusional at this point, and further logical dispute with you is becoming pointless. Good bye.

Fafryd's Avatar


Fafryd
01.23.2012 , 04:09 PM | #198
I didn't realise every warzone was full of 100% tanks that you had to guard each. Oh wait, it doesn't happen. Guard is fine.

This thread speaks of disgruntled Operatives.

Dominemesis's Avatar


Dominemesis
01.23.2012 , 04:09 PM | #199
Quote: Originally Posted by yukirshiro View Post
Guard is simply too strong. It is driving all the burst damage AND premade whines on these forums. Which means this one ability is causing probably 80% of the PVP balance discontent in the game.

There is a huge disconnect between people who have guard and people who don't. The 50% damage link guard provides means that burst damage has to be huge in order to be any threat to organized groups. But that means that all the unorganized PVPers who don't have guard get absolutely blown to pieces by burst damage.

As long as guard continues to function as it does you will just see a merry go round of burst whines and nerfs. Either burst damage will be tuned to guard, in which case it will be too high for the unorganized who will cry on these forums, or it will be too low and no one in organized groups will ever die, prompting whines about premades on these forums.

Somethings needs to change. I like the concept of Guard as much as the next tank, but the current implementation is just too strong. The obvious choice is to make guard not reduce damage but grant the tank's mitigation skills to the guarded person, but BW has worked themselves into a corner because most skills arn't mitigable.

Another option would be to put guard on a cooldown, but that has problems too. If they go this route the best option would probably be to give it unlimited duration but only let it be switched to a different target out of combat. This transforms guard into a very effective way to incentivize people to not hit the guarded target, but doesn't allow you to swap it around to whoever is getting hit.

I think the best option may be to make guard less effective, for example by having it reduce damage by 25% but continue to transfer 50% (or perhaps 35%) of the damage to the tank. This means guard is not always just a no brainer because it will actually increase the amount of damage the group takes, although it will spread it out better. Making it into an anti-burst ability but not an anti-damage ability.

This is easily the biggest problem in pvp balance, although most people don't realize it when they whine about things they don't understand are ulitmately all tied into Guard functionality. So lets get some other ideas out there for how to fix the problem.
This tactic is not an overpowered issue, it is an organizational issue. A Team with a tank and healer using a guard and heal me combo is going to have to be countered by equal organization on the part of the other team by way of focus firing at select targets. This is like complaining that teams using vent and being premade are OP. Winning through superior organization and tactics is a valid strategy that must be met in kind to be overcome. That isn't something that needs nerfed or buffed.

yukirshiro's Avatar


yukirshiro
01.23.2012 , 04:10 PM | #200
Quote: Originally Posted by Lymain View Post
Have you ever played a game with that mechanic? It's pretty unfun, imo.

And plenty of people have explained how you don't absolutely have to kill the tank first with the current system, but you ignored them
I wasn't really making an observation about the current system. You said you wanted me to admit I just wanted to dps the healer. So I answered that question. No, I don't want to make tanks unable to mitigate, but no, I also don't want a situation where you have to kill the tank first 100% of the time either.