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Guard Needs Fixing Now, or Why We Have So Many Burst Damage Whines

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Guard Needs Fixing Now, or Why We Have So Many Burst Damage Whines

yukirshiro's Avatar


yukirshiro
01.23.2012 , 03:45 PM | #181
Quote: Originally Posted by Lazorous View Post
I can speculate all I want about what I think Devs do for whatever reasons I believe. But, it doesn't make it true.

So again, where is your official source that Burst was specifically based around Guard?

You claimed it to be true, so the burden of proof is on you.

Otherwise, you want Guard to be nerfed based on your hypothesis, with no real evidence? Then you are a hypocrite for saying OPs were nerfed for that very same concept.
This is complete and utter nonsense. It's like demanding someone prove BW balances PVP healing around how much PVP damage there is or vice versa.

It's self-evident in the word "balance."

For example, look at all the people in this thread whining about how tanks don't have survivability and are useless aside from guard. Ever wonder why that is?

All things are interconnected. As long as you have guard in the game tanks will continue to be bad at mitigation and bad at doing anything esle because 90% of their value is going to be tied up in one passive ability. And you will continue to have this forum full of whines from unguarded healers about being useless and from unguarded people about burst dps and from people about how guarded healers are op and all the rest.

Shmn's Avatar


Shmn
01.23.2012 , 03:47 PM | #182
How about this:

If you are being guarded, your resolve meter cannot fill.

Leaves a good L2P counter of CC'ing the healer long enough.

Xinika's Avatar


Xinika
01.23.2012 , 03:47 PM | #183
Quote: Originally Posted by yukirshiro View Post
Guard is simply too strong. It is driving all the burst damage AND premade whines on these forums. Which means this one ability is causing probably 80% of the PVP balance discontent in the game.

There is a huge disconnect between people who have guard and people who don't. The 50% damage link guard provides means that burst damage has to be huge in order to be any threat to organized groups. But that means that all the unorganized PVPers who don't have guard get absolutely blown to pieces by burst damage.

As long as guard continues to function as it does you will just see a merry go round of burst whines and nerfs. Either burst damage will be tuned to guard, in which case it will be too high for the unorganized who will cry on these forums, or it will be too low and no one in organized groups will ever die, prompting whines about premades on these forums.

Somethings needs to change. I like the concept of Guard as much as the next tank, but the current implementation is just too strong. The obvious choice is to make guard not reduce damage but grant the tank's mitigation skills to the guarded person, but BW has worked themselves into a corner because most skills arn't mitigable.

Another option would be to put guard on a cooldown, but that has problems too. If they go this route the best option would probably be to give it unlimited duration but only let it be switched to a different target out of combat. This transforms guard into a very effective way to incentivize people to not hit the guarded target, but doesn't allow you to swap it around to whoever is getting hit.

I think the best option may be to make guard less effective, for example by having it reduce damage by 25% but continue to transfer 50% (or perhaps 35%) of the damage to the tank. This means guard is not always just a no brainer because it will actually increase the amount of damage the group takes, although it will spread it out better. Making it into an anti-burst ability but not an anti-damage ability.

This is easily the biggest problem in pvp balance, although most people don't realize it when they whine about things they don't understand are ulitmately all tied into Guard functionality. So lets get some other ideas out there for how to fix the problem.
Absolutely not. Please stop posting in my PvP forums.

Baudrillard's Avatar


Baudrillard
01.23.2012 , 03:49 PM | #184
Quote: Originally Posted by CyRenMBHMCM View Post
You dont seem to really understand how to pvp. The fact that you've ignored the multiple posts pointing out how an organised group can pull apart a guard team within the existing game system says a lot.

Cut out all the smoke and mirrors and you get what this really is, another PUG vs premade rant.

/thread.
Couldn't have said it better. +1

Lazorous's Avatar


Lazorous
01.23.2012 , 03:55 PM | #185
Quote: Originally Posted by yukirshiro View Post
This is complete and utter nonsense. It's like demanding someone prove BW balances PVP healing around how much PVP damage there is or vice versa.

It's self-evident in the word "balance."

For example, look at all the people in this thread whining about how tanks don't have survivability and are useless aside from guard. Ever wonder why that is?

All things are interconnected. As long as you have guard in the game tanks will continue to be bad at mitigation and bad at doing anything esle because 90% of their value is going to be tied up in one passive ability.
Just because you call something "nonsense" doesn't make it so.

But what is nonsense is you claiming something as fact, but have nothing to back it up. You are claiming they are absolutely, without a doubt, balancing the burst damage around Guard. One ability. The burden of proof is on you because SWTOR was designed as a PVE game first. So you claiming that BW based their entire Dmg system around PvP requires evidence.

Dorkfrey's Avatar


Dorkfrey
01.23.2012 , 03:58 PM | #186
Quote: Originally Posted by yukirshiro View Post
This is complete and utter nonsense. It's like demanding someone prove BW balances PVP healing around how much PVP damage there is or vice versa.

It's self-evident in the word "balance."

For example, look at all the people in this thread whining about how tanks don't have survivability and are useless aside from guard. Ever wonder why that is?

All things are interconnected. As long as you have guard in the game tanks will continue to be bad at mitigation and bad at doing anything esle because 90% of their value is going to be tied up in one passive ability.
No, this is where YOU are spouting complete and utter DRIVEL.

Tanks - mitigate damage off of others, and with a moderate setup, can really function as a tank should. By forcing the dps to focus them, due to the guard mechanic. H's guarding the healer, he can taunt you, and if you're too stupid to attack said healer, the healer will last forever. Oh my effing chips - that sounds a lot - like a tank functioning in a manner, that sounds like a tank should.

In terms of 1v1, they're not amazing. They're okay - but damage wise, will NEVER surpass a DD. I've not once in nearly 40 levels of PvP EVER got a 2.5k hit. Ever. I suspect when I've finished my gearing - I might just get lucky with a Spinning Strike CRIT, but - it's not the key thing here.

I function as a tank, by the merit that I can control the enemy's damage. If you want to do full damage, you have to attack me. Guard - only transfers the damage to me. It doesn't become brutal until either - you've got me CC'd (in which case I can't taunt/debuff) or you focus me with this BURST you're so eager to spout about (to the point the healer cannot keep me alive), or you just overwhelm with AoE, where I die and the healer follows shortly after. Sounds like it's working correctly.

You however - display ZERO knowledge of tanking principles in your WHINE about Guard, and seem to think it's this monster. It's only effective when YOU as a player let it be. There's countless ways to avoid it, and countless ways around it. Any player with a modicum of thought or organisation will be able to deal with it. And easily.

Lazorous's Avatar


Lazorous
01.23.2012 , 03:58 PM | #187
Quote: Originally Posted by Shmn View Post
How about this:

If you are being guarded, your resolve meter cannot fill.

Leaves a good L2P counter of CC'ing the healer long enough.
The problem with that is, someone guarding you is not your choice. It's like someone forcing a condition on you that you may not prefer. Sure you can left click Guard off, but that would become quite a nuisance everytime someone guards you.

Lymain's Avatar


Lymain
01.23.2012 , 03:58 PM | #188
I just want the OP to admit that he is really hoping to be able to focus down the healer first instead of the tank, rendering the tank's extra HP and mitigation impotent.

Stabbitha's Avatar


Stabbitha
01.23.2012 , 03:59 PM | #189
Quote: Originally Posted by Aghar View Post
I play a tank, I use guard all the time, even when I que solo. And its not even 50% mitigation, its 50% damage transfer, hell I have been killed just because the person I was guarding got the hell beat out of them. Any "burst" complaining about guard doe not know what the hell they are even talking about. You want to kill a guarded target, cc the guarded individual and burn the crap out of the tank, then move to the guarded target.
^

This is why 99% of these nerf threads are doomed to failure. The people complaining can't even get the ability right before they launch in to hyperbole loaded complaints about how terribad everything is...

ps. If someone is guarding, get one person to harass the healer and gank the tank. If there's no healer, the point is moot because focus fire will take down the target despite the guard. There are ways around every ability, it's called problem solving. It may involve some lateral thinking (which is probably why most of the complainers never work it out), but it's there.

Corran's Avatar


Corran
01.23.2012 , 04:00 PM | #190
i tried to kill a guarded 600 expertise sorc on my scoundrel yesterday

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQbmpwtEFLU

pretty much sums it up
"No one makes a victim of folks I'm sworn to protect." - Corran Horn
http://www.twitch.tv/dixa1