Dual Spec...when?

First of all, this isn't a discussion about respeccing. This is a discussion about dual spec.

If this quote is really what you are basing all of your arguments on then you need to quit. Dragon Age is a single player RPG. This is an MMORPG. Very different in the ways the game is structured. MMO's have PVP and PVE where Single Players just have PVE. This is one reason for dual spec.

Single Player RPG's also don't have multiplayer groups. You take your companions and you roll with them. Not true in MMO's where players fill the role of tank, dps and healer. And really the concept of companions fulfilling the off-roles of tank, dps and healer are fairly new for Single Player RPG's (such as DA and basically all of Bioware's console games). Granted, most had mechanics that used this thinking (two lines of characters where chars up front would take physical damage), but they weren't fully fleshed roles as they are now. Dual spec in an MMO allows a player to fulfill two group obligations for his guild in different circumstances. In an Op where the group may not need that player to tank he can switch to a DPS build. In a Flashpoint where the group may need a tank, the player can switch to a tank build. I'm not advocating being able to swith AC's as the AC is really your class.

And I also think you are misunderstanding what the Role in Role-Playing Game video games has historically meant. It typically has meant fantasy. Where you are a character in a story where most of your progression is rigidly determined from your stats to your abilities (think NES through Playstation RPG's, notably all Square and Enix RPG's, who were the big boys back in the day). Even Zelda, which is an action-RPG, is very rigid. But Zelda is an RPG because you are playing the role of Link. RPG's fall into many sub-genres including MMOs. MMO mechanics are different than Single Player mechanics, so you can't really base your argument on the fact that BW introduced respeccing into DA as a reason that dual speccing will hurt this game.

tl;dr - There are many types of RPG's and basing what you think should be in an MMO off of a Single Player game is doing a disservice to you and your argument.

From my point of view, adding dual spec removes many of the rewards gained by work and sacrifice. The effort and investment to attain those edges of optimization go unrewarded if you can get it comparably speaking for free. It gives motivation that drives player through the content as well as adding value to the sense of accomplishment.

Dual specs are a short cut to what otherwise is attained by effort, the multiple specialist. By adding in dual specs, you cut the needed effort to be good in multiple arenas into fractions of what it is. Especially, in a game where people are complaining about there being a lack of endgame, why take away the motivation to participate in what the game does do well just to excel at at what it is currently doing sort of badly by the accounts of many.

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Honestly, taking this from the player perspective is sort of missing the point of the how the game was developed. SWTOR excels at developing a richly-storied character in many different flavors. Each character is intended to be that well-developed and represent it's path to it present, not just be a placeholder for time spent by the player in the game. If you just want credit for your time in and be able to convert your levels to build for your avatar/gaming platform for your specific current activity, you are headed off the intended path and asking to do it in a way the devalues the direction of those playing as intended.

Yes, that is different than some players have grown accustomed but, it's also why SWTOR is seeing alot of players that weren't playing MMOs recently. Many were waiting for a game like this about story and not about being an eSport.

This game has much biger problems than adding dual spec..

How about they fix problem with fps drop (from 70 to 16 even less)?

This is mostly true, and I agree with your prominent points. From what I understand of Operations, is that you can actually be decent in PvE content rolling a PvP/PvE spec. I suppose skill will get you the edge, but gear will certainly help b.

The introduction or not of dual specs won't be the reason I unsubscribe or resubscribe, and anyone basing their next $15.00 on it is just looking to argue.

It would be a helpful addition to people like myself who lack the time to pour into another character but want to enjoy a wide skill set of a single class. Additionally, the dual spec'ing system is easily ignorable by those who disprove of its use. It doesn't make someone better or worse, it simply gives an opportunity to switch in an out of another viable spec depending on the situation at hand.

The lack of endgame content has nothing to do with dual speccing and has everything to do with this being a new MMO and the content not being developed yet. Dual speccing actually allows people to experience endgame content more freely, becuase they won't always have to wait on a certain role to fill the group or turn down other players because that role in the group is filled.

And yes, the story is what is bringing some people into the game. But you are flat out lying to yourself if you think packing 8 stories into a game is what Bioware was trying to deliver or that is the reason most people bought this game. If I wanted 8 story lines I would just go buy 4 Bioware games since all of them come with 2 story lines a piece (good or evil). The story is what is going to make leveling an alt worth it to me. Because the only reason I am going to level an alt is for the profession, the story is just a bonus so it won't be as monotonous.

I'd have thought this was already obvious. What other motivation would you see behind increasing costs for successive respecs? I can see only two conclusions:

1. Bioware thinks that respecs will earn you more cash, so they increase the cost as a credit-sink
2. They didn't intend you to use it repeatedly, so they punish you (provide a negative incentive) for using it often

The only other argument is "They're dumb and did it randomly". If that is the case, then we're outside logic and nothing anyone says can be taken to mean anything at all. So, from the two above options, I only see the second as viable. As respec'ing surely can improve your ability to play different content, you could get more cash, but the increase would not be a geometric/logarithmic increase with each respec. That leaves me with only the second option: that the cost is meant to be a deterrent and that deterrents are used to discourage play styles that players were not intended to use repeatedly.

Feel free to suggest your own evaluation.

I'll reiterate my questions from earlier in the thread:

The [question] is simple then: Do you honestly believe that over 50% of the players of this game are asking for dual-spec?

Or here's an easier version: Do you honestly believe that over 50% of the players of this game even know what dual-spec is?

Simpler again: Do you honestly believe that over 50% of the players of this game know what the term "spec" means?

I rarely see people use the term "dumb down" in a way that is not biased with prejudice and elitism.

That said: I won't say this is easy. The Tank/Medic/DPS system pretty much dooms you to this result. If you allow the game to step away from that, the situation becomes easier to manage. Of course, that brings in new problems and requires your player base to learn to play a game that isn't Tank/Medic/DPS. I've elaborated on this before, but the quick version is this: Tanking was an illogical addition to PvE (ordinary RPG) and Medics are a utility class. Both are designed for groups. Alone, Medics are weak in PvP by design and Tanks are weak in PvP to keep them from being immortal and pointless in groups against anyone with a brain (No, I'm not going to attack you just because you Taunted me).

Keeping the Tank/Medic/DPS system leaves less room to adjust, but I don't think it would be impossible. You'd still be able to make specs that are worthless in PvP, but you're never going to find a system that doesn't allow idiots to make bad decisions.

In thinking about it, I've actually realized that I'd be okay (not happy, but okay) with another option: Dual-spec but no respec. Choices still have consequence. You get your PvE and PvP specs. You can choose your spec somewhere convenient (but not at the drop of a hat). Yeah, it violates my no-respec ideals, but I actually find the trivial respec to be the greater crime against RPGs. At least dual-spec/no-respec forces people to live with their choices.

^^ This ^^.

This is a problem that every MMO faces because they all continue to use the 'holy trinity' design for content......SWTOR is no different.....in fact it might be even worse considering the size of groups and how everything seems to be one big DPS check after another...where not having tank = fail or having one too many tanks also = fail.

This is also what will eventually lead to the flood of QQ threads on these forums when LFD/Dungeon Finder is added and people(i.e DPS) find themselves in LONG queue times crying about the lack of tanks.

Hi there Malastare,

I do appreciate the thought you have taken in articulating your position, but I do have some responses for you.

Except that the Respec costs do reset weekly. So I guess that means your revised opinion is that BioWare believes that people should be able change their Specs once or twice a week?

This is a fallacious argument, because you are assuming that anyone who doesn't know what a Respec is would automatically be against Dual Spec.

An honest approach to this is whether or not you believe that among people who have strong opinions on the issue there are more people in favor or against Respecs (and I think you already know the answer to that )


I'd love it if BioWare hadn't chosen to make a "Holy Trinity" game but they did. I even applaud them for trying to make Tanking abilities (Taunt and Guard) useful in PvP (not saying they really succeeded though ). I also find it far more likely for BioWare to implement Dual Specs into the game than to completely recreate all the ACs and associated game mechanics to match something closer to what Guild Wars 2 is doing.

I proposed something similar to this (I don't believe in removing Respecs, but with Dual Spec they can keep the costs of doing so relatively high).

There is still one thing that your (and the Anti-Dual-Spec) position fails to address:

-Adding Dual Spec to the game in no way impacts your playstyle
-Keeping it out of the game definitely impacts others playstyles and long-term enjoyment

Finally, an MMO is a game that we currently pay a monthly fee to play, and you have to acknowledge that one of the foundational pillars of an MMORPG is Community. Your desire for virtually no Respecs whatsoever really falls short in a game where people are limited to 8 Character Slots per Server and 40 Character Slots total. You can try (and I have) endless combinations of Character Builds in games like Oblivion, but you can't do that here in a game that BioWare wants me to keep playing for years.

Dual Spec is a practical solution to some of the problems and limitations in the game. You might not like it, but I hope you can appreciate that fact.

I don't know a single person in WoW that didn't have dual-spec on their mains, and almost everyone had it on every alt the moment it was available. Similarly for Rift, everyone in my guild had 5 specs, and I don't know anyone that didn't have at least 3 on alts.

It's a much, much more widespread feature than you seem to think, especially for anyone that PvPs, or anyone that plays a hybrid class (which is everything sans Marauder/Sniper in this game).

This right here is the only argument needed. We're not asking for dual advanced classes...just the ability to swap between 2 specs within the AC. Many, many times we've had a healer drop mid run or a tank DC and in other MMOs a dual spec saved the day.