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Guard Needs Fixing Now, or Why We Have So Many Burst Damage Whines

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Guard Needs Fixing Now, or Why We Have So Many Burst Damage Whines

yukirshiro's Avatar


yukirshiro
01.23.2012 , 03:08 PM | #161
Quote: Originally Posted by Delavager View Post
Your argument is that Burst DMG should always win, and to balance the game so it always wins, else it's OP. You also seem to be assuming that it's 1v2. That one Bursty Class should be able to kill a target before either of the other two (the tank and the healer) can react. This is also STUPID.
I'm not assuming or thinking any of those things.

This is clearly way over your head.

Burst is the way it is because of guard. With guard in the game burst has to be higher to be effective. But that means burst is too high when guard isn't involved in the equation. Op burst was fine for a guard environment but it was too high for a non-guard environment. So it got nerfed.

Also, it isn't about guard stopping burst on the guarded target. Get that into your head. Only noobs wail on the guarded target.

Guard changes burst balance because of the short window when you can break the guard, not because burst needs to be higher so you can burst down a guarded target.

Lazorous's Avatar


Lazorous
01.23.2012 , 03:12 PM | #162
Quote: Originally Posted by yukirshiro View Post
Yes, but not to nearly the same extent.

The analogy would be like if sages had a passive 100HPS ability with 100% uptime they could just toggle onto a target, but the game was balanced so you could overcome that passive ability. That would be fine, but it would mean your damage on any target without the 1000HPS passive ability would be way overpowered.

Approaching different situations differently is fine but when one ability has such a dramatic effect on how burst damage works it is bound to throw things out of whack one way or the other.

When one ability means you have to completely change the way you play the game it's inevitable that balance is going to suffer either when that ability isn't present or when it is present.

The EQ example is a good one. If Shaman can lower PVE damage by 75% you have to either balance for a shaman in every group or against a shaman in every group. Either way the result is bad.
But it is not on 100% of the time. That is only applicable under perfect circumstances and/or you face a very nub team.

I'll give you a real example. As a vanguard I came upon a juggernaut and healer on a node. I see two stealth teammates approaching the healer, but the two are focused on me. I begin my initial burst dmg on the tank then pulled the tank over to me. He's far from Guard range and the stealthies pop and start pounding on the healer. At this time, the tank doesn't realize the healer is getting rap-ed, so he's actually fighting me for a little bit. By the time the tank realizes healer is in danger, healer is at 20% (if not less) and tank is around 60%.

So now the tank runs back and leaps to the healers defense and does a taunt. This delays the healer's death but not by too much longer as we keep interrupting the healer, and now I'm focusing on the healer, adding to the dps (and I'm not taunted). Now since Guard TRANSFERS the dmg over, by the time the healer died, the tank was down to 30% or so, thanks to all that dmg transfer, making him an easy target.

So in that example, I ask you, what is wrong with guard? Because these are real battles that took place, and I've had many similar fights that included me taking the tank out of guard's range.

Paydroid's Avatar


Paydroid
01.23.2012 , 03:13 PM | #163
Quote: Originally Posted by yukirshiro View Post
No, the high dps is here because of guard.
Honestly, how can you really believe this? PvP is only part of the game, your argument is tantamount to suggesting guard was devised before anything else in the game... that the whole thing, from solo mobs to flashpoints to raids, is about guard and countering guard.

If anything this game was designed around solo and PvE play, and the PvP was adapted around it... suggesting that every other class' burst damage was built around the existence of guard is a bizarre, baseless assumption.

Lazorous's Avatar


Lazorous
01.23.2012 , 03:15 PM | #164
Quote: Originally Posted by yukirshiro View Post
No, the high dps is here because of guard.
State your official source for this statement. If you have none, then it is nothing more than speculation. Your speculation is not fact.

Know the difference.

Kyzr's Avatar


Kyzr
01.23.2012 , 03:19 PM | #165
Quote: Originally Posted by Lazorous View Post
But it is not on 100% of the time. That is only applicable under perfect circumstances and/or you face a very nub team.

I'll give you a real example. As a vanguard I came upon a juggernaut and healer on a node. I see two stealth teammates approaching the healer, but the two are focused on me. I begin my initial burst dmg on the tank then pulled the tank over to me. He's far from Guard range and the stealthies pop and start pounding on the healer. At this time, the tank doesn't realize the healer is getting rap-ed, so he's actually fighting me for a little bit. By the time the tank realizes healer is in danger, healer is at 20% (if not less) and tank is around 60%.

So now the tank runs back and leaps to the healers defense and does a taunt. This delays the healer's death but not by too much longer as we keep interrupting the healer, and now I'm focusing on the healer, adding to the dps (and I'm not taunted). Now since Guard TRANSFERS the dmg over, by the time the healer died, the tank was down to 30% or so, thanks to all that dmg transfer, making him an easy target.

So in that example, I ask you, what is wrong with guard? Because these are real battles that took place, and I've had many similar fights that included me taking the tank out of guard's range.
^

If you reroll Imp, come to Anchorhead. We need more 'situational aware' players like yourself.
Relax - Ajunta Pall

Quote: Originally Posted by Trizell View Post
Shutup Relax blows.

Lazorous's Avatar


Lazorous
01.23.2012 , 03:20 PM | #166
Quote: Originally Posted by Kyzr View Post
^

If you reroll Imp, come to Anchorhead. We need more 'situational aware' players like yourself.
LoL, thanks. But my server (Mandalore the Indomitable) still needs all the Republic help they can get

yukirshiro's Avatar


yukirshiro
01.23.2012 , 03:23 PM | #167
Quote: Originally Posted by Lazorous View Post
I'll give you a real example. As a vanguard I came upon a juggernaut and healer on a node. I see two stealth teammates approaching the healer, but the two are focused on me. I begin my initial burst dmg on the tank then pulled the tank over to me. He's far from Guard range and the stealthies pop and start pounding on the healer. At this time, the tank doesn't realize the healer is getting rap-ed, so he's actually fighting me for a little bit. By the time the tank realizes healer is in danger, healer is at 20% (if not less) and tank is around 60%.
So basically guard doesn't change the game dramatically because you found an idiot who doesn't know how to use guard?

Great argument there, chief.

yukirshiro's Avatar


yukirshiro
01.23.2012 , 03:27 PM | #168
Quote: Originally Posted by Lazorous View Post
State your official source for this statement. If you have none, then it is nothing more than speculation. Your speculation is not fact.
Lol. Balance doesn't happen in a vacuum. Everything effects everything else.

Arguing that guard has no impact on pvp balance is seriously the worst way to argue against guard changes. It's just obviously wrong.

Just to give you a concrete example: the 30% healing debuff was added partway through beta. It was very clearly added because of guarded healers.

You're just kidding yourselves if you think the devs don't consider guard when deciding how much burst dps is needed in pvp.

Dorkfrey's Avatar


Dorkfrey
01.23.2012 , 03:27 PM | #169
Quote: Originally Posted by yukirshiro View Post
So basically guard doesn't change the game dramatically because you found an idiot who doesn't know how to use guard?

Great argument there, chief.
Your whole arguements are you've found idiots who don't know how to deal with guard (a damage transferral ability - that lets tanks tank).

GREAT argument there chief.

Lazorous's Avatar


Lazorous
01.23.2012 , 03:28 PM | #170
Quote: Originally Posted by yukirshiro View Post
So basically guard doesn't change the game dramatically because you found an idiot who doesn't know how to use guard?

Great argument there, chief.
Wow, really? You do realize there's nothing a person can do when they're not in range of guard right? Even if the two I mentioned were on vent, when the healer isn't guarded during the time I kept them away, those two stealthies can burst down the healer to low hp, before the tank has time to jump back to save him. In some cases I cryo nade people I just pull to prevent them jumping back, if I feel they're aware. That's called knowing how to play. I'll teach you some day, perhaps.

So what's your bright argument? That guard revolves around Healer and Tank 100% of the time? That there is never a gap between the two? That only nubs will play because they don't know how to separate the tank? Go ahead...