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Guard Needs Fixing Now, or Why We Have So Many Burst Damage Whines

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Guard Needs Fixing Now, or Why We Have So Many Burst Damage Whines

Fox_McCloud's Avatar


Fox_McCloud
01.23.2012 , 02:27 PM | #131
Quote: Originally Posted by yukirshiro View Post
Guard is simply too strong. It is driving all the burst damage AND premade whines on these forums. Which means this one ability is causing probably 80% of the PVP balance discontent in the game.

There is a huge disconnect between people who have guard and people who don't. The 50% damage link guard provides means that burst damage has to be huge in order to be any threat to organized groups. But that means that all the unorganized PVPers who don't have guard get absolutely blown to pieces by burst damage.

As long as guard continues to function as it does you will just see a merry go round of burst whines and nerfs. Either burst damage will be tuned to guard, in which case it will be too high for the unorganized who will cry on these forums, or it will be too low and no one in organized groups will ever die, prompting whines about premades on these forums.

Somethings needs to change. I like the concept of Guard as much as the next tank, but the current implementation is just too strong. The obvious choice is to make guard not reduce damage but grant the tank's mitigation skills to the guarded person, but BW has worked themselves into a corner because most skills arn't mitigable.

Another option would be to put guard on a cooldown, but that has problems too. If they go this route the best option would probably be to give it unlimited duration but only let it be switched to a different target out of combat. This transforms guard into a very effective way to incentivize people to not hit the guarded target, but doesn't allow you to swap it around to whoever is getting hit.

I think the best option may be to make guard less effective, for example by having it reduce damage by 25% but continue to transfer 50% (or perhaps 35%) of the damage to the tank. This means guard is not always just a no brainer because it will actually increase the amount of damage the group takes, although it will spread it out better. Making it into an anti-burst ability but not an anti-damage ability.

This is easily the biggest problem in pvp balance, although most people don't realize it when they whine about things they don't understand are ulitmately all tied into Guard functionality. So lets get some other ideas out there for how to fix the problem.
I agree 100% and this is exactly why the Guard mechanic is a BAD ONE and should never be in any pvp game.

It was the same thing in Everquest with slow. The monsters damage was based on the fact that it would be cut by 75% becuase of slow. This mean that when there was no one who had slow around the monsters damage was 4 times as bad as "normal".

You cannot balance your game on the assumption that healers will have Guard, otherwise when they do not, or in pugs they vast majority of the time they will not.. the incoming damage will be to high.

Conversely, premades that use guard going up against pugs that dont have a proper tank class who is playing correctly, makes it seem like the premades healer is invulnerable.

Guard is a bad mechanic, it has been in every MMO its ever been in.

Bad game design.

VertisReaper's Avatar


VertisReaper
01.23.2012 , 02:27 PM | #132
Quote: Originally Posted by yukirshiro View Post
It isn't about being able to counter guard. It's about guard changing PVP dynamics too much to balance to both situations.

If you balance for being able to counter guard anytime you don't have guard involved things are going to be unbalanced. In particular you are going to be blowing people up in 3 seconds and CC is going to have a ridiculously overblown effect.

If you do the opposite and balance without guard in mind guard becomes pretty much uncounterable.

Right now BW is trying to do both and it can't work mathematically. Guard has too much of an impact on game balance to have a balanced game both with and without it.
are you trolling us? tell me you are trolling, rofl.

yukirshiro's Avatar


yukirshiro
01.23.2012 , 02:28 PM | #133
Quote: Originally Posted by ArtosKincaid View Post
Guard is not overpowered, nor does it change the way PvP works any more than any CC ability with a moderately long duration.
lol

Thanks for the bump I guess.

Lazorous's Avatar


Lazorous
01.23.2012 , 02:29 PM | #134
Quote: Originally Posted by yukirshiro View Post
Uh how is that possibly a controversial statement?

Unless you think guard has no effect on pvp survivabiltiy it clearly does change ability balance.

Do you approach a situation where there is a guarded target the same way as a situation without a guarded target? Of course not. Your fundamental approach to the situation changes because otherwise you will get rolled.

What is important when someone is guarded is completely different from when someone isn't guarded. It has by far the biggest impact on overall game balance of any ability in the game.
By your logic, then a Sage/SI's bubble changes balance, no? Or a healer next to any group changes pvp survivability. Or any other Cooldowns and abilities other classes offer will have an effect on PvP survivability.

Do you approach a situation where a target is next to a ranged unit, as compared to a situation where he's next to a melee unit? Or do you change your strategy when there are 3 enemies instead of two?

Your fundamental approach to a situation will ALWAYS change depending on various variables within the game.

That's not a very strong argument.

yukirshiro's Avatar


yukirshiro
01.23.2012 , 02:31 PM | #135
Quote: Originally Posted by Fox_McCloud View Post
It was the same thing in Everquest with slow. The monsters damage was based on the fact that it would be cut by 75% becuase of slow. This mean that when there was no one who had slow around the monsters damage was 4 times as bad as "normal".
Yep, that's another classic example of the conundrum. Like dispels in WOW.

When one ability has such a dramatic impact on game balance you are in a bad situation. There is no good way to resolve the problem except to find a way to lessen the impact.

Single abilities should not be complete game-changers.

The basic idea of PVP tanking is fine, but guard's implemetnation is just mathematically questionable. Guard should be removed and replaced with several active PVP tanking abilities which allow intelligent users to mitigate damage more precisely.

Dustfinder's Avatar


Dustfinder
01.23.2012 , 02:32 PM | #136
Quote: Originally Posted by yukirshiro View Post
If you can't grasp how an on-demand 50% damage link doesn't throw burst damage balance completely out of line the post isn't really directed at you, although it is still ultimately for your benefit since a solution to guard will stop a lot of the PVP balance problems.
Guard is fine the way it is. Tanks taking half the damage from multiple people on your guarded target can hurt. Especially if people are focusing on the tank as well. For some reason people attack me more and I am a tank. They don't even bother half the time to attack the healer I have on guard either. Also with it being 15m that is short and people are easily out of range of it or get knocked out. People still can be killed with guard on I think it is fine.

Guard is not the issue in pvp. Do you ever look at the match after a wz ends? Barely anyone uses it as it is simply because of lacking heals. A lot of matches you see people only guarding for 10k worth or less sometimes you see a huge number but it is nothing that is game breaking. More so than not people put it on someone and then they do not even stick with them. Obviously from a numbers aspect guard is fine and should not be nerfed. Look again at your warzones on people guarding the numbers are never very flattering so how you are calling for a nerf is beyond me. My targets have been killed while guarded with focus like it was nothing. Trust me it is not guard making pvp unbalanced lmfao.

Paydroid's Avatar


Paydroid
01.23.2012 , 02:33 PM | #137
I have never said this before on an MMO board, but seriously... L2P.

There are so many stuns, knockbacks, and roots in this game that it is incredible to me that someone would think that guard is some sort of ridiculous game-changing move.

Kyzr's Avatar


Kyzr
01.23.2012 , 02:33 PM | #138
Quote: Originally Posted by Rhyn View Post
Why can't you adjust tactics. Both sides have tanks with the abuility. If you ID the tank CC/interupt healers and use your dps on the tank it is game over. I am a tank who guard a healer all the dam time and i can tell you once i am ID it is game over for me.
^This.

He says seperating them is impossible, and then continues the rant as though he stated a fact and not an opinion, and therefore not a legitimate strategy.

And then there's the "Focus down the tank first" strategy. Which he says is impossible, and then continues the rant as though he stated a fact and not an opinion, and therefore not a legitimate strategy.

Of course, an organized group will manage these strategies time and time again, so what he's really saying is that he can't kill premade tank/healer combos while in a PUG with his faceroll "Nuke the Squishy" strat.

Funny part? If they have guard up, they're squisher than whoever he's guarding. None-Kinetic damage is like what, 12% resist on tanks? So if I managed to crit a non-tank for 10k, that's 5k if he's guarded, 2k if I'm taunted. On a tank? Without a CD (which is where you'd swap), it's 8.8k? See how this works now?

Basically, he doesn't understand how guard changes his own "Nuke the Squishy" strat.
Relax - Ajunta Pall

Quote: Originally Posted by Trizell View Post
Shutup Relax blows.

yukirshiro's Avatar


yukirshiro
01.23.2012 , 02:35 PM | #139
Quote: Originally Posted by Lazorous View Post
Your fundamental approach to a situation will ALWAYS change depending on various variables within the game.
Yes, but not to nearly the same extent.

The analogy would be like if sages had a passive 100HPS ability with 100% uptime they could just toggle onto a target, but the game was balanced so you could overcome that passive ability. That would be fine, but it would mean your damage on any target without the 1000HPS passive ability would be way overpowered.

Approaching different situations differently is fine but when one ability has such a dramatic effect on how burst damage works it is bound to throw things out of whack one way or the other.

When one ability means you have to completely change the way you play the game it's inevitable that balance is going to suffer either when that ability isn't present or when it is present.

The EQ example is a good one. If Shaman can lower PVE damage by 75% you have to either balance for a shaman in every group or against a shaman in every group. Either way the result is bad.

Draqy's Avatar


Draqy
01.23.2012 , 02:36 PM | #140
I think Guard actually needs a buff or a debug. Has anyone every noticed that when your guard target gets cc'd it also applies to you? Do not think this is working as intended