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Who made those weak Tanks ?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Who made those weak Tanks ?
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Xenon-se's Avatar


Xenon-se
01.19.2012 , 07:56 AM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by ducksmyth View Post
You select a tank for the taunts and guard. Armor is way behind HP for a pvp tank, but still a million miles ahead of avoidance.
And utility.

Access to Force Grip, mini sprint and snare remover on 20 sec CD and knockdown in combat for Assassin tanks, Access to Jet Charge as PT tanks, Extra CC as Juggernaut tank...

LordSemaj's Avatar


LordSemaj
01.19.2012 , 07:57 AM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by Xenon-se View Post
What I thnk you miss is that being able to kill one of your opponents is actually a form of damage mitigation.
Not at all. I simply don't believe for one gosh darn second that a tank is actually going to kill anyone in a competitive PVP game with half-decent players and non-afk healers.

You rely on the DPS for that, focus on staying alive so you can keep them alive. The tank who thinks "I'm gonna dps!" is a waste of space on the team. What he should be thinking is "I'm gonna taunt all these guys off the operative then laugh as they beat on my impenetrable defense!".

So I agree... that we disagree.


Also...
Can't do much with marauders as I don't know the carnage spec, but...

Quote: Originally Posted by ducksmyth View Post
PTs for instance can ignore up to 90% armor on railshot.
Which is affected by avoidance and shield/absorb ratings. Glad you took those tank stats now eh?
Quote: Originally Posted by ducksmyth View Post
Mercs ignore 55% armor on everything with tracer missile and high velocity gas.
And if they were just wizards in other games, they'd ignore 100% of armor and 100% of shields. Grav Round = Fireball.
Quote: Originally Posted by ducksmyth View Post
Ops ignore 50% on everything with acid blade.
Ops are OP. They kill EVERYONE absurdly fast. Not a tank issue.
You can try to explain PVP to the ignorant... but you cannot Force them to understand it.

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PhoenixMatrix's Avatar


PhoenixMatrix
01.19.2012 , 07:58 AM | #43
Even as it is, if I picked up the ball in huttball and there was a healer nearby, by the time they killed the healer then me, I scored, 95% of the time (scoring 6 in a row in a few minutes to the point no one had more than 2 medals isnt uncommon, and im republic side). If tanks were any tankier, there would be serious balance issues.

Xenon-se's Avatar


Xenon-se
01.19.2012 , 08:02 AM | #44
Quote:
The choice is always yours, but don't sit here and think any of this is a new concept. You can equip a two-handed sword in any MMO and start doing tons more damage as a tank in ...
No. And this is the point we are trying to make.

If you equip DPS gear and weapons but keep your tank stance and spec in other games then you would sacrifice a lot of your survivability but only gain gain small amount of extra damage.

In this game you would sacrifice virtually NO survivability and gain a HUGE amount of damage.

ComeAndSee's Avatar


ComeAndSee
01.19.2012 , 08:02 AM | #45
Gearing your Tank for PvP is like a balancing act.

Defensive stats aren't godly, but they do still mitigate a lot of damage.

If you go for all Tanking stats than your offense is going to be weak, but if you stack a good amount of crit + surge and keep a healthy amount of defensive stats than you can be good at both.

Right now I have 74% surge and about 23% crit chance unbuffed, but still retain 38% shield and 30% absorb.

Tic-'s Avatar


Tic-
01.19.2012 , 08:03 AM | #46
I do a lot of solo queueing currently, and have pretty much given up on my tank.

I PvP'd with a protection type tank in both WoW and Warhammer, and i feel pretty useless for my team in this game as a tank. I could switch specs, and then just be another dps, in a sea of dps i suppose, but i like to be a bit different.

I rolled a healer, and bring a whole lot more to my group.

If i need to bring another class with me to PvP to be effective, I'd rather roll something else to be honest.

ducksmyth's Avatar


ducksmyth
01.19.2012 , 08:04 AM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by LordSemaj View Post
Try to understand my point... you're sacrificing longevity for damage... you are entirely welcome to do that if you believe it best. What you are doing is creating a hybrid character. It's no different from a DPS Vanguard staying in shield stance. Or a DPS Shadow staying in Combat Technique stance. You gain a large amount of survival at the cost of... what? A little dps from your offensive stance?

The choice is always yours, but don't sit here and think any of this is a new concept. You can equip a two-handed sword in any MMO and start doing tons more damage as a tank in tank spec with tank gear. Heck, you can switch to DPS gear and retain your tank spec and probably do great with a sword and shield.

None of that is a new concept to MMOs. But you're lowering the effectiveness of your character's main role in order to cover his weaknesses better, rather than just leaving the DPS to your DPS allies. They have the better suited rotations and talents to make the most effective use of DPS gear. You have the better suited spec to make the most effective use of tanking gear. That's all there is to it.

If you're pugging, I'd highly recommend the hybrid setup! It's great because you have no weaknesses! But for competitive PVP, especially skilled premades going head to head, i.e. what the game is balanced around, the tank stats do help considerably. Jack of all Trades players tend to be ineffective do nothings who occupy spaces on otherwise decent teams.


They just might not be your style.
He isn't lowering his tanking effectiveness.

Your tanking effectiveness comes almost entirely from being in a tanking stance for 5% mitigation and guard plus good use of taunts.
Guard is based on your hp only.

A ST/Pyro hybrid BH in DPS gear is a better pvp tank than a pure shield tech BH in tanking gear.
What is your plan for getting people to shoot you as a pure tank so you can make use of any mitigation? Taunts alone? Offensive language? Displeasing fashion sense?

A hybrid has taunts, same armor almost identical HP and good DPS or massive burst.
People can straight up ignore a pure tank in tank gear but they will have to attack or CC a hybrid tank before they melt your healer to goo. Any CC you eat is a CC your healer doesnt and one that could be cleansed so that makes you a better pvp tank. Not to mention that the dead deal no dps at all.

LordSemaj's Avatar


LordSemaj
01.19.2012 , 08:07 AM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by Xenon-se View Post
In this game you would sacrifice virtually NO survivability and gain a HUGE amount of damage.
Didn't we just go through a whole ordeal explaining how the no lost survivability myth needs to stop being perpetuated?

Your counter to it was that slaughter was a form of mitigation... but again, in any decent group, a tank with dps gear isn't going to be killing anyone either. You only mitigate if that person actually dies.

So now you can't tank... and you can't kill... all you can do is pad your damage score and feel good about yourself at the end. Again - GREAT idea for PUGs, but since game balance must always be against competitive play levels... what works in PUGs stays in PUGs.

Quote: Originally Posted by ducksmyth View Post
He isn't lowering his tanking effectiveness.
I said effectiveness, I was referring to your role in being a damage sponge. Taunts, other skills, or just standing on a point are merely ways tanks soak up damage. If you're squishy on top of that... death to the tank means death to the team.
You can try to explain PVP to the ignorant... but you cannot Force them to understand it.

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Xenon-se's Avatar


Xenon-se
01.19.2012 , 08:07 AM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by Tristita View Post
Valor rank 55 assassin here.

22k hit points without buffs, 554 expertise.

I wear the tanking set, and LOVE it. Defense and shielding may not be amazing, but with guard and taunts, I can keep a healer ...
You get the same amount of armor and expertise on your dps pvp set. And you can still use guard and taunt.

But the tank pvp set invest a lot of the item budget on defense, shield and absorb. stats you don't really get any return from.

If tank set convert all the item budget on defense, shield and absorb into endurance or armor - THEN we things would be different. But right now dps and tank set are almost identical, except that tank spend item budget on stats that you almost never use in pvp while the dps set invest into stats you use in every single fight no matter what class or spec you face.

If bioware change defense, absorb and shield into armor or endurance (OR if defense give more resistance, so that tech and force attacks can miss unless they stack accuracy) - then I TOO will start using my champion tank set on my assassin. Trust me.

Xenon-se's Avatar


Xenon-se
01.19.2012 , 08:09 AM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by LordSemaj View Post
Not at all. I simply don't believe for one gosh darn second that a tank is actually going to kill anyone in a competitive PVP game with half-decent players and non-afk healers.
Not talking about you SOLO anything. I was talking about you helping the assist train to actually KILL someone faster than their healers can keep up healing. If you do x3 more damage you help to reduce the time to kill.

A dead opponent deal 0 damage. An opponent that have 5% still deal 100% dmage.

You cant use defensive CDs, taunts and guard every single CD. You have time to help the assisst train to actually score a kill. To speed up their job. To reduce the impact on your healers.
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