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Mitigation, the REAL problem. Also, operatives need a 2x dmg multiplier.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Mitigation, the REAL problem. Also, operatives need a 2x dmg multiplier.

Boarg's Avatar


Boarg
01.13.2012 , 10:11 AM | #771
Just as a side note...

Tanks are actually lucky in PvP in this game compared to most.

In most MMO games, there's an assortment of magic/caster classes (or equivalent) that bypass nearly everything that makes a tank durable. Essentially, all they are left with is a bigger HP bar to stay alive.

In this game, even the roughly magic damage equivalent type classes have the vast majority of their abilities fully affected by ARMOR. So, here tanks get to keep their HP and Armor. Also, they get to have their taunt and guard functions actually be highly useful in PvP.

DsevenO's Avatar


DsevenO
01.13.2012 , 10:12 AM | #772
Quote: Originally Posted by LordSemaj View Post
Sir... that is how it is in every game. I am not missing the point, you are. I have stated this over and over again starting in the pages halfway back down the thread.

You are calculating mitigation. Not damage. Damage can be calculated upward freely, it climbs ever higher in every single MMO. Mitigation always climbs slower, and always has a less of an initial effect, because mitigation has a stronger growth curve with greater returns when compounded with healing. Tanks are utterly useless without their healers, it is a symbiotic relationship that affects your mitigation calculations. You fail to understand how mitigation scales rapidly with healing, or even that healing exists at all, and thus you fail to appreciate or even comprehend how small gains in defense, however tiny you perceive them to be, result in substantial gains to survival. There is no point in discussing this with you further.

Going from a hypothetical 98% damage reduction to 99% damage reduction is only a small gain to people who cannot understand math, yet I see similar ignorance flourishing in this very thread. My colleague was right -- it is futile to try to explain this to any of you.

As for tanking stats affecting only certain classes... welcome to MMOs, you must be new. Were this World of Warcraft, EverQuest, Lotro, DDO, or some other, not even your armor would save you from a lightning bolt, much less your shields. Tanking armor/shields are never meant to stop every attack, and that holds true in the vast majority of MMOs. If it has a wizard in it, odds are he ignores armor and shields and attacks you like a squishy. It's called balance. Mages kill Tanks.

You still pick the Tank gear if you're aiming to be a premade. Sacrificing tank gear for the DPS is like DPS sacrificing DPS for extra Tanking power. It's nice for solo queues and has a large effect because you are spreading out your character's focus, but it just doesn't work in premades. Seriously, it's the same effect you get when a tank equips a 2-handed sword... he's gonna do a lot more damage and still have tons of survivability! But when you end up facing a REAL premade with a REAL tank and REAL DPS and when each player performs their job... they light your team up like a christmas tree.

Assuming that "mages kill tanks" is an mmo axiom and that our mitigation should be irrelevent to all attacks that aren't either ranged or melee I would be willing to abandon that portion of the argument. (Btw, does anyone know what percentage of attacks across all classes are defined as ranged or melee?)

Moving on, I would love to see the data that supports the notion that our pvp mitigation stats scale rapidly with healing (as opposed to a pure dps class that has a dedicated healer folowing them around). It's easy to see how going from an improbable 98 percent mitigation to 99 percent mitigation would be huge because you now just effectively halved you damage intake from 2 percent damage taken to 1 percent. I'd like to see how going from say 25 percent mitigation to 26 percent is mathematicallly huge. I'm genuinely interested in the mathematics behind this and I think it would go a long was to ending this thread if it is indeed a red herring.
Go Forth and Die

Garbald's Avatar


Garbald
01.13.2012 , 10:22 AM | #773
Quote: Originally Posted by Boarg View Post
Just as a side note...

Tanks are actually lucky in PvP in this game compared to most.

In most MMO games, there's an assortment of magic/caster classes (or equivalent) that bypass nearly everything that makes a tank durable. Essentially, all they are left with is a bigger HP bar to stay alive.

In this game, even the roughly magic damage equivalent type classes have the vast majority of their abilities fully affected by ARMOR. So, here tanks get to keep their HP and Armor. Also, they get to have their taunt and guard functions actually be highly useful in PvP.


Not really, most dps trees have armor reducing or ignoring stuff for all the hard hitters that could potentially be severely reduced by armor, flechette round, infiltration tactics, grav round, armor piercing cell etc.
This alone would not be that bad but coupled with all the abilities that flat out ignore armor reduces the importance and usefulness of armor quite a lot.

Boarg's Avatar


Boarg
01.13.2012 , 10:29 AM | #774
Quote: Originally Posted by Khabarach View Post
The two bolded above use Rage as their PvP DPS spec, hence rely mostly on Force Attacks, i.e. Yellow damage. The white damage they do is largely just rage building.
Even with a Focus/Rage spec, they still deal a large portion of their overall damage through the white combat table. Fighting against a tank will significantly reduce their damage output.

Also, any of the other specs are very heavy in white damage.

Boarg's Avatar


Boarg
01.13.2012 , 10:41 AM | #775
Quote: Originally Posted by Garbald View Post
Not really, most dps trees have armor reducing or ignoring stuff for all the hard hitters that could potentially be severely reduced by armor, flechette round, infiltration tactics, grav round, armor piercing cell etc.
This alone would not be that bad but coupled with all the abilities that flat out ignore armor reduces the importance and usefulness of armor quite a lot.
Even where such things exist, they only do in part.

For example, you could easily say that about an Infiltration Shadow. Force Breach does internal damage, and Shadow Strike can consume procs that give it 50% armor bypass.

However, Force Breach has a 15s cooldown and requires using lots of regular attacks beforehand to build up a buff stack so that it will actually hit reasonably hard.

And Shadow Strike is garbage unless it has the Find Weakness proc that makes it cheap enough to be worth using and to have the 50% armor bypass. That critical Find Weakness proc has a 10s ICD.

So, even if they got to wail away on a tank for an entire ~35s window in a perfect world, they would only have 5 attacks during that whole time that legitimately ignore or reduce armor. The other up to 23 attacks would be fully mitigated by armor...and those include several of the heavy hitters.

Also...where armor is "reduced"...you're still getting the benefit of armor and an advantage over non-tanks.

Garbald's Avatar


Garbald
01.13.2012 , 10:56 AM | #776
You do though the gap is due to the % armor reduction a lot smaller ie lets say
a none tank has 20% reduction and a tank 40% (20% gap) reduced by 50% the gap is now only 10% (10% reduction for the none tank 20% reduction for the tank). If it is a linear progression I frankly do not know if it is.

The main problem for tanks atm though is that the ttk (due to buff stacking) is extremely low (without a pocket healer) even in tank spec you can get wasted by a buff stacker in 3 to 5 gcds.
During that timeframe the "white hits" don´t really come into play.
You could get some solace in the fact that the solo attacker had to use all those klickables but that doesn´t make you not dead ^^

CapuchinSeven's Avatar


CapuchinSeven
01.13.2012 , 11:27 AM | #777
Quote: Originally Posted by LordSemaj View Post
We've both posted numbers for various classes in this thread.
Quote: Originally Posted by ltankhsd View Post
one freaking page ago I posted a crapload of abilities (44 total for Emp side) affected by shields
Guys look... If you honestly think that data is even slightly useful in showing if there is or isn't a disproportionate rise in DPS while losing minuscule survivability and rendering tank gear pointless next to DPS gear with the same armour value then more power to you.
I know chop-knees.

Khabarach's Avatar


Khabarach
01.13.2012 , 11:44 AM | #778
Quote: Originally Posted by Boarg View Post
Even with a Focus/Rage spec, they still deal a large portion of their overall damage through the white combat table. Fighting against a tank will significantly reduce their damage output.
The abilities that do white damage are mainly used due to their other properties, e.g. building rage or slowing the target. Damage wise they are the weakest of the SW's abilities and don't provide a particularly high percentage of the overall damage.
Quote: Originally Posted by Board
Also, any of the other specs are very heavy in white damage.
You mean the specs not actually used by pvpers?
Quote: Originally Posted by Boarg View Post
Also...where armor is "reduced"...you're still getting the benefit of armor and an advantage over non-tanks.
What armour advantage does an Immortal Jugg in tank gear have over a Rage one in dps gear in Soresu exactly?

DarthOvertone's Avatar


DarthOvertone
01.13.2012 , 12:02 PM | #779
Quote: Originally Posted by Zodan View Post
Would be nice to see some official answer what they are planning to the tank stats or gear in pvp or should I just reroll to a dps class.
At this time, you should, in the least, gear for DPS as a Tank. If you are just a straight PvPer, then you would be better off just respeccing to DPS altogether. However, if you do Tank stuff for PvE, then you can stay specced for tanking. You can still pretty much Tank anything in the game with a DPS set while Tank specced. However, you will have to rely more heavily on your CDs.

Eternity Vault may be the difference. Haven't been there or Tanked that yet. Not sure if a Tank set makes a considerable difference there.
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Torcer's Avatar


Torcer
01.13.2012 , 12:06 PM | #780
Quote: Originally Posted by LordSemaj View Post

I reiterate that this is another logical fallacy... you're propagating a truth without regard for its intention, to set an even stage for an experiment. Before that can be accomplished, both sides must be even... that is, a player with insufficient skill in no way can begin to understand how the mechanics operate under the appropriate conditions for the experiment. To such a player, negativity abounds even if the answer is looking him straight in the eye. The player lacks skill, and skill boils down to one thing -- the ability to think critically. The experiment becomes a sham. One cannot assume equally skilled players in a game mechanic discussion because often the ones making the complaints are unfit to be analyzing the dilemma!


You do literally not understand why Player skill is irrelevant to a discussion of game mechanics. Gear and Skill are variables, if we don’t assume that all variables are equal for the sake of analyzing mechanics; there will be no way to know if the result is due to the variables, or the mechanics. Great skills can overcome poor mechanics, and poor skills can negate the worst mechanics, but that doesn’t have any relevancy to whether they are good, or bad mechanics, or how they work in practice against competent players.

For the sake of this Mitigation discussion, assume Good players with Good PvP gear. What happens when Good players with Good PvP gear enter a WZ? Proclaiming your l33tness allows you to avoid really addressing the Mitigation question.

Look, most of us here understand the mechanics as much as we can without a Combat Log. We know how to get decent numbers of medals each match, even when we lose, we could use our knowledge to stack DPS gear, and Spec DPS. The problem with that approach is that if we wanted to be a DPS role we would have picked a DPS class; we want to Tank, absorb damage, make it harder for you to damage our teammates, and have the Damage Mitigation necessary to fulfill that role. Tanks should be able to Tank, lower DPS should result in greater HPs and Mitigation, Defensive gear should add defense that works in actual PvP, at the cost of lower DPS, and the game’s mechanics should implement this.