Mitigation, the REAL problem. Also, operatives need a 2x dmg multiplier.

Why don't you ask them to confirm if the sky is blue or if water is wet while you are at it. To those of us with two brain cells to rub together, we see that it's working as intended and works fine.

Sir... that is how it is in every game. I am not missing the point, you are. I have stated this over and over again starting in the pages halfway back down the thread.

You are calculating mitigation. Not damage. Damage can be calculated upward freely, it climbs ever higher in every single MMO. Mitigation always climbs slower, and always has a less of an initial effect, because mitigation has a stronger growth curve with greater returns when compounded with healing. Tanks are utterly useless without their healers, it is a symbiotic relationship that affects your mitigation calculations. You fail to understand how mitigation scales rapidly with healing, or even that healing exists at all, and thus you fail to appreciate or even comprehend how small gains in defense, however tiny you perceive them to be, result in substantial gains to survival. There is no point in discussing this with you further.

Going from a hypothetical 98% damage reduction to 99% damage reduction is only a small gain to people who cannot understand math, yet I see similar ignorance flourishing in this very thread. My colleague was right -- it is futile to try to explain this to any of you.

As for tanking stats affecting only certain classes... welcome to MMOs, you must be new. Were this World of Warcraft, EverQuest, Lotro, DDO, or some other, not even your armor would save you from a lightning bolt, much less your shields. Tanking armor/shields are never meant to stop every attack, and that holds true in the vast majority of MMOs. If it has a wizard in it, odds are he ignores armor and shields and attacks you like a squishy. It's called balance. Mages kill Tanks.

You still pick the Tank gear if you're aiming to be a premade. Sacrificing tank gear for the DPS is like DPS sacrificing DPS for extra Tanking power. It's nice for solo queues and has a large effect because you are spreading out your character's focus, but it just doesn't work in premades. Seriously, it's the same effect you get when a tank equips a 2-handed sword... he's gonna do a lot more damage and still have tons of survivability! But when you end up facing a REAL premade with a REAL tank and REAL DPS and when each player performs their job... they light your team up like a christmas tree.

The half I am referring to use it largely in all of their specs. Yes, it proportion between white/yellow does vary between the specs, but they still require doing a big chunk of their damage through the white combat table in order to do decent overall damage. Also, just because a spec might have a somewhat more favorable white:yellow proportion, doesn't make it a good PvP spec.

I'll use Jedi Shadow as an example.

Balance spec has the best capability of bypassing tank mitigation with Internal and Kinetic attacks...however, it is the WORST PvP spec, because of lack of overall pvp utility and how it deals damage: dots, aoe, and still requiring using white melee attacks to do decent damage because of how the ability synergy works.

Kinetic has slightly better white:yellow proprtion than Kinetic, but it does relatively low damage regardless, being a tank spec. (which this whole thread is deriding) By not going all the way down the tree and putting nearly half its points into Infiltration, it actually has pretty good PvP utility, mostly because of Force Pull. (and the increased survivability this thread frequently pretends doesn't exist)

Infiltration has the worst white:yellow proportion, but it's still the best PvP spec for anything other than trying to play a tank role. Despite the heavy usage of the white combat table, it has the most practical damage capability, even against a tank target, and strong utility.

*blink*

It's like... you both seem to think what you're saying is true based on nothing but observation and have a total lack of ability to prove what you're saying is true (other than "i r teh good at eth mathz, i r wud show u but its so awsum") and then when presented with an alternative observation claim "but but omg u may as well ask 4 teh biowarez to tell u why teh sky is blue!"

There is no combat log.
You're both full of rubbish but present it with an air of superiority and very little evidence, when evidence is asked for you claim "it'll never happen, but trust us we is smart, u don't need it 'cus we smart we sees all".

If there is limited defence gained from tank gear but substantial DPS gained then defence gear has less value based on mine and others observations. You claim substantial defence can be gained from tank gear, but SHOCK can't prove it and claim any attempt for clarification without a combat log is pointless. What a helpful discussion this was, thank you for your input.

I've posted numbers from my own character on page 50, one freaking page ago I posted a crapload of abilities (44 total for Emp side) affected by shields, I posted lots of explanations of how the mechanics work in between and nothing gets through to you or people who agree with you. It's almost like you have your eyes shut tight, fingers in your and and are screaming repeatedly "CAN'T HEAR YOU, CAN'T HEAR YOU"

We've both posted numbers for various classes in this thread. I've even twice now tried to explain how the mitigation value expands to be greater than the face value. You're officially a troll. It isn't the data or the numbers we disagree on, it's how you're interpreting the results, thus it's not primarily data that is part of our counterargument... it's the logic and critical thinking needed to help you correctly analyze the data.

I reiterate... equipping DPS gear in this game is like equipping a tank with a 2-handed weapon in any other. It's going to greatly increase his damage at little cost to his survival.

That doesn't make it a good idea.

Oh, and keep dreaming about blocking fireballs with your shield. I'm sure one day a popular MMO like that will exist. Till then, get used to some classes ignoring it. There will always be classes that ignore tank defenses.

Please try to keep the thread civil. Last thing anyone of us want is that a mod is forced to lock it down because a few individuals can't agree to disagree in a mature manner.

I think it is pretty natural that some abilities or even entire classes ignore our shields. Spell casters use to do that in just about any other game (but sometimes a tank is giving tools to shield or reflect themselves against "magic" damage).

This feels natural to most abilities that Sith Inquistor Sorcerers throw at us. They are as close to a "mage" you get in this game. Frankly, in other games, armor would probably not even protect against their spells, but quite a lot of the Sorcerer lightnings and the mirror Sage telekinesis are actually Energy or Kinetic which armor help to mitigate.

It further feel natural that attacks that can be avoided or blocked can be avoided or blocked. Deflecting arrows and blocking swords is second nature. It's what tanks do, right? It feel natural that we can shield against laser swords. It feel a bit odd that we can dodge bullets (or in this case blaster fire) - but you see jedi guardians deflecting laser swords and blaster fire all the time - so why not. In SWTOR we can even shield against attacks from behind (such as backstab - Maul) or when we channel, something you can't in most other games.

Then we have snipers. In some games snipers are sometimes designed to be tank killers. Tanks being slow and easy targets for the long range and squishy sniper. Require preperation and aim. Sometimes stealth. Positioning. Wait for the perfect shot. Killing your target in one shot, or at least taking out a large chunk of its health pool. In this game tanks are probably one of the worst targets for a sniper since they can dodge and block just about anything comming out of that sniper rifle (explosives, poisons, droids and indirect fire is another story though).

So tanks both dodge and soak laser swords, blaster fire and sniper fire. Their armor soak lightning spells and projected rocks.

Then we have Bounty Hunters (both Powertech and Mercenary as well as Trooper Vanguard + Commando). They have melee moves such as Rocket Pounch or Retractable Blade that feel like tanks maybe should be able to shield against? A slow moving (compared to a sniper shot) explosive dart (maybe this is why wookies crossbow is useful - Darth Vader can't shield against it..?). A tracer missile? Nope. Can't shield against them. It "feel" as if tanks should be able to use their shields agains them, but they penetrate shields 100% of the time. Then again tanks can shield against a Rail Shot(!) and when the bounty hunter Unload his weapon(s) into the tank. Bounty Hunters also have an arsenal of elemental damage (such as flamethrowers) that not only are impossible to shield against - they also bypass armor (but that is more accepted I think?).

And then we come to operatives (and Scoundrels). Now it get really strange. Tanks can shield against a double bladed backstab (Maul) that require hitting from behind, but tanks can't shield against Backstab from an operative using a vibro knife...? Tanks can shield against Assassinate from an Assassin but they cannot shield against Hidden Strike from an operative? Tanks can shield from Thrash but not from Operative Shiv...? There are quite a lot of "melee" moves that Operatives use that at least I think is strange that they count as Tech instead of Melee and thus all ignore shields 100%. A good thing is that most their abilities are Kinetic or Energy so that they don't ignore armor. The bad thing is that Acid Blade give both Backstab and Hidden Strike internal damage as well as a very strong sundering armor effect which render armor a weak last line of defense.

Is it done on purpose?

I guess that is what we all want to know and only BioWare can answer that.

Since Sorcereres, Bounty Hunters and Operatives represent a lot more than half the playable population this first month of the game (flavor maybe, who knows) and because Marauders and Juggernauts can spec into Rage (mostly ignore shields), Assassins can spec into Madness (enhance shaman-ish spec that also mostly ignore shields) and snipers can spec into engineering or lethality (both largely ignore shields) it also mean that Tank PvP equipment have a lot of stats that is rendered mostly useless compared to DPS PvP equipment (that have the same amount of expertise and armor and just lightly less endurance - but a ton more DPS stats). Maybe all of that defense, shield and absorb on Tank PvP equipment should be converted into something more useful for PvP - even pure endurance would be more useful right now...

Then again, the whole champion gear lotto give such good equipment return for little effort that it currently is more than well worth collecting a few bags a week just to buy PvP Tank gear and use it to tank PvE.

Tank PvP equipment is still more useful than DPS PvP equipment against "most" Snipers, Assassins, Marauders and Juggernauts - but the overall extra survivability you [might] gain for the average matchup in a warzone is very slim compared to the extra damage output you [will] gain by using DPS PvP equipment.

You're actually pretty mixed up here on which classes are in which camp.

There's a white damage combat table, which is subject to defense and shields. There is a yellow damage combat table which is not.

There are 4 class AC's that when doing an optimal damage priority/rotation/spec that deal predominantly yellow damage or can substitute in yellow damage with little penalty. They are:

Scoundrel/Operative
Commando/Mercenary
Vanguard/Powertech
Sage/Sorcerer


The other 4 class AC's rely heavily on dealing damage through the white damage combat table when doing optimal priority/rotation/spec. They have very limited capability or effectiveness for trying to substitute in yellow damage. They are:

Gunslinger/Sniper
Shadow/Assassin
Sentinel/Marauder
Guardian/Juggernaut


Looking at ability lists in a vacuum is useless. You have to actually have some understanding of how the classes work and deal damage when played correctly.

Or trolls to have manners ;p

The two bolded above use Rage as their PvP DPS spec, hence rely mostly on Force Attacks, i.e. Yellow damage. The white damage they do is largely just rage building.