Mitigation, the REAL problem. Also, operatives need a 2x dmg multiplier.

I can only reply to what you wrote, and you wrote "Trooper." You stated:

If you meant to limit that to Commandos, then you should have made it explicit. If you did mean to limit it to Commandos and not Vanguards, then the corollary of your point is that Vanguards do not mitigate fine because they can’t sustain damage through Grav Round. Without realizing it, you’re supporting the main point of this thread, which is that Tank Stats should do something and that increased DPS should offset decreased Mitigation and vice versa. This admission is implicit in your point.

If DR/Shield/Absorb worked, a Commando with Grav round is going to stack an Aim set, a Trooper Vanguard is going to stack Defense. If we start from this base assumption, and are worried that increasing Mitigation will overpower Commandos because of their Grav Round sustained DPS, then BioWare could tweak the two sets of Armor so that the Aim set has less Mitigation, while the Defense set has greater mitigation, and lower Aim (Although it already does).

People bringing up their l33t skills in a Game Mechanics discussion is irrelevant. In order to examine game mechanics, you must use an analytical concept that economists call ceterus paribus – hold all other things equal. In other words, an efficacious game mechanics discussion requires that you compare equally skilled and geared players, so that skill and gear are neutralized as variables, otherwise there would be too much variability to conduct a legitimate analysis. Every time you insert your skill into the discussion, you’re no longer discussing game mechanics. Earlier in this thread some players conducted experiments with their friends, using different weapons and armor sets, and they were basically implementing this concept. I’m sure you’re a great player, congratulations, we’re all very impressed, but player skill is irrelevant to a game mechanic discussion.

But I am and I tested this with him and I agree.

All these guys have against operatives at this point are their armor, which works great, for the most part, except ops have armor pen abilities. Tank specs shouldn't be that squishy to a rogue class. It's not so much a nerf to operatives because we'd still keep the power behind our bursts but we just wouldn't be able to bypass everything all the time.

Besides that, there are people investing their time in trying to get PvP gear designed for them only to find out that the gear they've been working for is worthless. Whole sets of gear with useless stats. What's the point of having them if they don't work?

I don't care either way. In fact:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=166805

There's a thread I wrote titled "Why the state of PvP Mitigation is a good thing (and why we are lobbying for the wrong changes)."

I talk about operatives a lot for a very simple reason. One you'd know if you actually bothered to read the research and testing I have done.

I tested it with an Operative. Not out of spite or seeking nerfs, but because my GF has an Operative and she was available to stab me in the back for an hour. The Operative class was therefore the entire basis for my first leg of testing, which lead to the posts that everyone is passing around and quoting (or misquoting) so much.

However Operatives are one of the most flagrant reasons why the mechanics set in place don't make sense, Rocket Punch is another one in that list (I'm a Powertech btw). They are abilities that are about as melee as you could get, but are classified as Tech. That's fine and dandy, but it misleads a lot of tanks into thinking they are getting more for their buck than they are. Which was why I did all of the testing in the first place.

So way to get all aggressive over simplified analogies for the sake of people understanding what is going on. I'm sure your mother is very proud of you.

I am <3

I meant only to reply to a single specific poster. I do not intend to repost entire threads to prevent future misunderstandings. I'm sure you'll understand, as I was merely using the same terminology the poster I quoted was using. The post I was quoting included this, but of course you will not notice that straight away in my quote because a quote cannot quote a quote. Ah forums, you make mockeries of civil discussion.

Here's what the poster I was replying to had quoted:


Unfortunately it's not, because it plays a part in how people arrived at their erroneous conclusions. What you are trying to imply with your intellectual jargon is that all the nerf threads pertaining to one class or another are validated because, all things being equal, some random guy was killed by another class relatively easily.

The "things being equal" must apply first to a set industry standard. If the bar is so low that a class is being penetrated roughly by another class with no opportunity for retaliation, then we are essentially catering to players who are incompetent. Rather, the bar is set a tad bit higher than that and players are expected to at least reach it before validation of the argument can be had. In short, the more extravagant the claim, the more proof is required. This thread reeks of reactionary posting with little actual proof. Listing class abilities is not evidence without understanding their flaws and rotations. Saying "I saw some guy wearing DPS gear!" is not validation of any claim (looking at you Ace). Understanding the reasoning behind the mechanics is vital to having a platform to argue from... and in MMOs, that understanding is commonly related to player skill.

After all, we're dealing with a game centered around math. The ones who understand how the math works will prosper. The ones who can't figure out why their math isn't making them powerful will fail miserably.

Returning to the subject of tanking stats, I can assure you that they are working as advertised and perform well enough to be warranted. With DPS, the majority of the damage done comes from base stats. It's the same with tanking, the majority of the defense comes from Armor and Endurance plus the base shield rating. Granted, DPS currently sees a higher return on their investment in the short term. But if you have a competent premade group with a well equipped knowledgeable healer who functions with you as a unit, small gains are reaped into huge returns and you prosper as a tank in the long term.

Quite a number of my posts have been misinterpreted, misconstrued, or blatantly altered to suit devices... however I will repost one of the more simple ones to attempt to foster a better understanding of how Healing operates in PVP for the learned...

DPS does 4 dmg per second.
Healer heals 2 dmg per second.
Tank has 10 hps with 30% mitigation.
Tank is dead in 12.5 seconds.

DPS does 4 dmg per second.
Healer heals 2 dmg per second.
Tank has 10 hps with 40% mitigation.
Tank is dead in 25 seconds.

DPS does 4 dmg per second.
Healer heals 2 dmg per second.
Tank has 10 hps with 50% mitigation.
TANK CAN'T DIE.

Stick whatever numbers you wish into the example, use actual numbers from SWTOR if you care, it makes no difference as it serves one purpose and the results are the same... Survival time exponentially increases as mitigation increases when healing is involved.

Small gains = Huge rewards

Ignore your shields at your own risk. Though frankly, ignore them completely if you solo or run a premade with no real intention of making the best use of tanking. Generalists will always beat disorganized Specialists, and that my friend is most certainly player skill related.

You're not paying attention, I'm not going to copy and paste the same damn point again, I'm out.

sorry not gonna read all that but im here to say OPERATIVES DO NOT NEED A BUFF ARE YOU FREAKING CRAZY.

I tried to explain how to do a game mechanic analysis LordSemaj, you literally do not understand how to analyze, but what is worse is that you don't care to understand.

I'll do it for you!

My post clearly stated that there is. You may need to reevaluate what your role is in PVP.

This is false, as when I stated Tank Gear survives more than DPS gear, I meant it. It makes zero sense to go full dps gear and cripple your tank in a premade group. But likely you do not function at the same level that is required for absolute tanking to have a purpose, in which case DPS gear is best suited for you as a player.


In short, tank gear does its job. Are you doing yours? In your words...
Translation: I don't know how to argue effectively so I have to attempt to confuse you and you beat me with logic. Now I'll turn tail and run.

There isn't an iota of evidence in this thread that isn't anecdotal or circumstantial. Belittling me will not alter that fact.

Even on this point you are incorrect. DPS secondary stats have no diminishing returns, but tank stats do.

As more and more tiers become available, even the small amount of benefit that Def and Shield currently give will become worse and worse relative to DPS gear.

Sigh....

Even on this point you are incorrect. DPS secondary stats DO have diminishing returns... as well as hard caps.

The only stat that does not have diminishing returns is Power, and the returns are fixed... the more gear improves, the more you'll need to even make a difference. It is not percentage based like every other stat in the game.

In fact, the only stat that gets better and better the more you stack it is Alacrity. A healer stat. Which helps tanks.