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Tank stats in PVP


VoidSpectre's Avatar


VoidSpectre
01.12.2012 , 04:14 PM | #221
Quote: Originally Posted by Boarg View Post
Despite popular perceptions lately....they did not actually do that. 4 out of 8 AC's rely heavily on weapon damage attacks, typically with their hardest hitting ones.

Defensive stats are actually quite useful against half the classes in the game.

I would agree that "half" is not enough, but it's a lot more than people in these threads recently would have you believe.

also doesn't help that the biggest offenders of being all tech/force are mercs/commandos, sage/sorc, operatives/scoundrels. some of the highest dpsers in game and the most popular classes right now



for the life of me i cannot figure out why operatives/scoundrels have mostly tech attacks. they are the squishy rouge type class that burns through healers and ranged, they don't also need to burn through tanks

Dosvidaniya's Avatar


Dosvidaniya
01.12.2012 , 04:20 PM | #222
Quote: Originally Posted by LordSemaj View Post
People are too focused on the NUMBER of tech attacks and not their frequency of use or the conditions to use them (15 second cooldown AND Melee only for Stockstrike).
Actually, people are trying to determine this information. You walked through two abilities for one of the classes (based on one tree). You don't tell us what percent of the damage comes from these moves. We don't know what they are for other classes. We don't know the percentage of players in said classes. Instinctively, after you see that 4 classes tend to bypass shields altogether, you typically wonder if it is worth anything. Others, like you, assure that is worthwhile. You do so by stating the classes that do use said abilities. We still don't have a good number to actually realize the true value of shields and tanking abilities. Both sides are making up numbers and accordingly, no one proves anything. We'd need a thread with AC, spec, and percentages of damage coming from the different attack types. Then we could actually answer the complaint with some level of accuracy.

Boarg's Avatar


Boarg
01.12.2012 , 05:16 PM | #223
Quote: Originally Posted by VoidSpectre View Post
also doesn't help that the biggest offenders of being all tech/force are mercs/commandos, sage/sorc, operatives/scoundrels. some of the highest dpsers in game and the most popular classes right now

for the life of me i cannot figure out why operatives/scoundrels have mostly tech attacks. they are the squishy rouge type class that burns through healers and ranged, they don't also need to burn through tanks
Yeah, which brings us around to re-evaluating what the real potential problems are.

It really comes down to only a couple biggest offenders, like you say.

Sage/Sorc, I would actually leave out of that group, personally. They do a very normalized sort of damage that is easily disrupted.

Operatives/Scoundrels and Mercs/Commandos are doing high damage against pretty much everyone, including tanks. IMO, tweak them a bit and then Tank Mitigation is essentially working as intended. If it were up to me, I could probably get the job done by just tweaking one or two abilities with each. Not cripple them, but just reel them back to being "good".

Northwynde's Avatar


Northwynde
01.12.2012 , 08:13 PM | #224
Quote: Originally Posted by Boarg View Post
Despite popular perceptions lately....they did not actually do that. 4 out of 8 AC's rely heavily on weapon damage attacks, typically with their hardest hitting ones.

Defensive stats are actually quite useful against half the classes in the game.

I would agree that "half" is not enough, but it's a lot more than people in these threads recently would have you believe.
I have actually researched around 100 attacks from all the classes and found that 60 of them cannot be shielded. Armor is much more effective and isn't bypassed nearly as often. Which means spending 9 pts in the shield tech tree to increase shield chance and procs off shield is not a good value when it comes to skill pt distribution or gear itemization for that matter. BW can adjust damage types to put shielding where they want it but if this is where they want it then I am out of the tank business. Much more across the board gain from straight dps improvements.

Burgundus's Avatar


Burgundus
01.12.2012 , 09:12 PM | #225
"I have actually researched around 100 attacks from all the classes and found that 60 of them cannot be shielded. Armor is much more effective and isn't bypassed nearly as often. Which means spending 9 pts in the shield tech tree to increase shield chance and procs off shield is not a good value when it comes to skill pt distribution or gear itemization for that matter. BW can adjust damage types to put shielding where they want it but if this is where they want it then I am out of the tank business. Much more across the board gain from straight dps improvements. "

This, pretty much Bioware said that tanking in pve and pvp would be similarly worthwhile. I'm levelling up my shield tech power tech, and see that my spec is essentially worthless. If it's primarily the armor, than the other power tech specs are much better. This shouldn't be the case, especially with no duel spec.

Nikodeamas's Avatar


Nikodeamas
01.12.2012 , 09:30 PM | #226
Quote: Originally Posted by Burgundus View Post
This, pretty much Bioware said that tanking in pve and pvp would be similarly worthwhile.

Im going to search for the quote now, but as i remember Bioware praised tanking in PvP, and assured us we would be impressed. Of course im paraphrasing. Ill try to find it.



Edit; I found one quote, but *not* the one im looking for, still searching;


And i quote;

Q: What incentives will there be for players to focus on targets outside of the typical “gank the healer” strategy; and how will factors such as burst damage, crowd control and “PvP tanking” play a role in accomplishing this?

A: Winning will be the incentive. Attacking the healer will be the right decision sometimes, but not always. A key contributor in ensuring this is the tanks’ Guard and Taunt abilities. Guard will redirect half of the damage through the Tank’s mitigation and avoidance. A taunted target will deliver less damage to everyone but the tauntee. Players will be able to easily visualize which Tanks are guarding and taunting, who their targets are, and when damage is deflected through clear animations and effects. This adds to the dynamics of a skirmish as players of varying skill levels can easily react to and be on their toes about who the real targets of opportunity are and when. Additionally, Tanks will be recognized and rewarded for how much damage they deflect in this fashion on Warzone scoreboards.

We have a fairly large health pool to burst damage potential ratio. This allows for burst damage to be useful when the time is right, while not letting it dictate the outcome of all skirmishes.

And as far as crowd control goes, there is ‘Resolve.’ Every time a player is crowd controlled they build up Resolve, which is pictured as a bar over the characters head (below the health bar). Once a player’s Resolve Bar is full it changes colors and starts to decay over time, during this they are immune to crowd control. The visual element helps with PvP accessibility, and tuning the Resolve values allows us to achieve a fun tempo ensuring crowd control as its place but isn’t the end all be all of PvP.

/unqoute

KiranK's Avatar


KiranK
01.12.2012 , 09:38 PM | #227
Quote: Originally Posted by Nikodeamas View Post
Im going to search for the quote now, but as i remember Bioware praised tanking in PvP, and assured us we would be impressed. Of course im paraphrasing. Ill try to find it.



Edit; I found one quote, but *not* the one im looking for, still searching;


And i quote;

Q: What incentives will there be for players to focus on targets outside of the typical “gank the healer” strategy; and how will factors such as burst damage, crowd control and “PvP tanking” play a role in accomplishing this?

A: Winning will be the incentive. Attacking the healer will be the right decision sometimes, but not always. A key contributor in ensuring this is the tanks’ Guard and Taunt abilities. Guard will redirect half of the damage through the Tank’s mitigation and avoidance. A taunted target will deliver less damage to everyone but the tauntee. Players will be able to easily visualize which Tanks are guarding and taunting, who their targets are, and when damage is deflected through clear animations and effects. This adds to the dynamics of a skirmish as players of varying skill levels can easily react to and be on their toes about who the real targets of opportunity are and when. Additionally, Tanks will be recognized and rewarded for how much damage they deflect in this fashion on Warzone scoreboards.

We have a fairly large health pool to burst damage potential ratio. This allows for burst damage to be useful when the time is right, while not letting it dictate the outcome of all skirmishes.

And as far as crowd control goes, there is ‘Resolve.’ Every time a player is crowd controlled they build up Resolve, which is pictured as a bar over the characters head (below the health bar). Once a player’s Resolve Bar is full it changes colors and starts to decay over time, during this they are immune to crowd control. The visual element helps with PvP accessibility, and tuning the Resolve values allows us to achieve a fun tempo ensuring crowd control as its place but isn’t the end all be all of PvP.

/unqoute
This is a straight up lie by Bioware. Tanking in PvP is severely limited. I dropped all talents related to shield and defense on principle, simply because they don't work in PvP. Gank the healer is also the ONLY strategy when fighting a team with heals. They lied to us straight to our faces.
There's no QQing in baseball.

Nikodeamas's Avatar


Nikodeamas
01.12.2012 , 09:38 PM | #228
Heres another, but yet, not what im looking for, still searching;

And i quote;



Darth Hater spoke to Lead PvP Designer Gabe Amatangelo about Warzones and character roles in PvP. He had this to say about a couple PvP tanking abilities:

If I taunt a player, they are going to do less damage to everyone except for me. And that less damage that they end up delivering -- that difference is going to be tracked on the scoreboard for me. When I guard a player, fifty percent of the damage they receive is redirected to me. And of course, all my heavy armor and avoidance is going to come into play, helping them to survive as well as myself, and all the damage I take on their behalf will be tracked for my rewards at the end of the Warzone.



/end quote

Nikodeamas's Avatar


Nikodeamas
01.12.2012 , 09:42 PM | #229
Another i find very interesting, but yet still, NOT the quote im looking for;


I quote;


The last point where Tanking will have a bigger role than other MMOs is the fact that BioWare is intentionally attempting to gear PvP fights to last longer and avoid ‘one, two, and three-shot battles’ between players. With battles lasting longer by taking less damage/having more HP in general, being a Tank is more rewarding as you’re given more time to work on battle tactics and your class roles will become even more apparent in their usefulness.

With these badges, actual statistical benefits for your allies through Tanking abilities, and the fact that PvP battles in general will last longer – there is added and actual incentive to not only playing a Tank in name, but also gearing your playstyle toward that class type as well.
It’s a great combination and a step in the right direction to add some flavor for PvP players.


/end quote

Read the last paragraph again. 3 times if needed. Lemme know if you get my point, please.

Garbald's Avatar


Garbald
01.12.2012 , 09:46 PM | #230
The funniest thing is about the ttk... I don´t think 3 to 4 gcds actually counts as "the battles last longer"