SWTOR could use a "Karazhan"

STAR WARS: The Old Republic
SWTOR could use a "Karazhan"

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Jett-Rinn

01.12.2012 , 02:13 PM \| #51	Quote
Last time I checked Kara is still there. I'm sure Bioware has their own ideas in mind.
No one hates Star Wars as much as "Star Wars fans"

Kurnea

01.12.2012 , 02:19 PM \| #52	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Greyfeld I actually quit six months before WotLK came out. I could see the direction WoW was going in, with the institution of rep. grinding and welfare epics. That, in combination with the fact that I couldn't find a player to replace my arena partner that would randomly and consistently go MIA for days at a time, and I couldn't find a raiding guild that wasn't full of arrogant, abusive jackholes to save my life... well, in the end, I just couldn't take it any more. So even though a number of the reasons I quit were personal, underlying it was the fact that I was unhappy with the direction WoW was going, being heavily causual-oriented, and Blizzard's idea of "new content" being more repeatable crap to grind out day after day. How exactly is this game any less casually oriented? End-game gear seems easy to get, and the content isn't overly challenging outside of nightmare mode.

VoXPCS

01.12.2012 , 02:23 PM \| #53	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by KerinKor On release, Kara was a typically over-tuned wipe-fest targeted at the 0.1% of the player-base able to find the time to do it: as such it was a FAIL for the other 99.9%. After the first nerfbat rightly hit it, it was turned into something sensible; content that was hard but not impossible by a reasonable proportion of the playerbase. The final nerf before WoTLK was also fine, it allowed a good number of other players the chance to see what it was about, even though the encounters were pretty toned down. It took skill and time to complete when it first came out. Back when MMOs weren't catered to the cry babies and mouth breathers that can't do basic math yet graduated highschool, somehow... It was hard and the 1% that did do it, and did it right, were among the elite. It felt good. Now everyone can do it and think they're someone. But they're not. This game is that. Younglings crawling out of the woodwork to their first MMO and they'll know a real challenge. Ever.
Welcome to The Fatman: Where LFG actually works. & MMO means something again.

Greyfeld

01.12.2012 , 02:26 PM \| #54	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by BloatedGuppy "Making raiding accessible to casuals" was the focal point of the whine of the person I was replying to. Apparently, allowing people access to content is Evil, and will begin the immediate collapse of a game. I used to run a raiding guild in WoW, and I raided in DAoC. I was too new to MMOs in general with EQ to ever get to the raid stage. Big complex encounters can be fun. I actually really enjoyed Karazhan. But nothing makes me hate raids as a concept faster than raiders, and if I hear one more variation on the "casuals want free epix kthxbye" argument I'm going to beat whatever arrogant talking head is spouting it with his own spreadsheet. Here's the thing... As long as there is content for each type of player (pvp, solo, small group, hardcore raider), there *should* be content that not everybody can get to. Your $15 a month doesn't pay for instant access to all content. Heaven forbid somebody should have to actually work to reach the higher tiers of gameplay. Personally, I think the whole "hard/nightmare mode" thing was a great idea to satisfy both groups, but when the hard mode isn't actually hard, and you don't even have to do nightmare to get the best gear, it undermines the entire system. There's no incentive to even attempt the higher levels of difficulty when you can just farm the regular modes for the highest gear.
. <FinalWave>

Greyfeld

01.12.2012 , 02:27 PM \| #55	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Kurnea How exactly is this game any less casually oriented? End-game gear seems easy to get, and the content isn't overly challenging outside of nightmare mode. I didn't say it wasn't, and I don't understand how you could have possibly assumed I was implying that. As it stands, I'm taking a "wait and see" stance for when my subscription expires in April.
. <FinalWave>

Khechari

01.12.2012 , 02:27 PM \| #56	Quote
Kara was awesome. Probably the most fun I ever had in WoW.

BloatedGuppy

01.12.2012 , 02:28 PM \| #57	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by VoXPCS It took skill and time to complete when it first came out. Back when MMOs weren't catered to the cry babies and mouth breathers that can't do basic math yet graduated highschool, somehow... It was hard and the 1% that did do it, and did it right, were among the elite. It felt good. Now everyone can do it and think they're someone. But they're not. This game is that. Younglings crawling out of the woodwork to their first MMO and they'll know a real challenge. Ever. It took TIME. 99% of the road block was, and always has been, time. Time to gear up. Time to organize and schedule a bunch of people. Time to wipe and learn. Time to farm consumables. Time, time, time, time, time. "Don't stand in the fire" or "Run your rotation" have never been skill checks. It's hilarious that you think they are, and then call other people "younglings" and crow about your mad skills. Congrats on your time sink, though. "Elite".
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit, and the emperor remains an emperor." - Neil Gaiman

Alcarinn

01.12.2012 , 02:30 PM \| #58	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Greyfeld Here's the thing... As long as there is content for each type of player (pvp, solo, small group, hardcore raider), there *should* be content that not everybody can get to. Your $15 a month doesn't pay for instant access to all content. Heaven forbid somebody should have to actually work to reach the higher tiers of gameplay. Personally, I think the whole "hard/nightmare mode" thing was a great idea to satisfy both groups, but when the hard mode isn't actually hard, and you don't even have to do nightmare to get the best gear, it undermines the entire system. There's no incentive to even attempt the higher levels of difficulty when you can just farm the regular modes for the highest gear. I as a dedicated gamer of PvE fully disagree with your part about heroic/nightmare mode... this is the most lazy solution ever ... i consider content cleared once the last boss dies no matter what quality and there is no fun to wipe XY times to bring down a boss just so you have to repeat it for XYX times again on higher lvl... this is very bad and very boring especially if you NEED to finish all 3 tiers cos of gear progression... if you do not then people will go for easier anyway... so its a loss/loss situation in my eyes

Fizil

01.12.2012 , 02:31 PM \| #59	Quote
Kara was basically the last gasp of old school non-linear dungeon design in WoW. Beginning in TBC, we begin to see more and more dungeons with corridor->boss room->corridor->boss room->etc....etc.... all in a neat little line. You see the same style of dungeon design in SWTOR. Vanilla WoW on the other hand had many dungeons that were designed more organically such as BRD or Maraudon. After BRD though, this design philosophy was basically abandoned. I think the reason we see some of it in Kara still is that Kara was initially developed for the vanilla release, but was shelved due to some design issues, then finished for TBC.

BloatedGuppy

01.12.2012 , 02:33 PM \| #60	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Greyfeld Here's the thing... As long as there is content for each type of player (pvp, solo, small group, hardcore raider), there *should* be content that not everybody can get to. Your $15 a month doesn't pay for instant access to all content. Heaven forbid somebody should have to actually work to reach the higher tiers of gameplay. Personally, I think the whole "hard/nightmare mode" thing was a great idea to satisfy both groups, but when the hard mode isn't actually hard, and you don't even have to do nightmare to get the best gear, it undermines the entire system. There's no incentive to even attempt the higher levels of difficulty when you can just farm the regular modes for the highest gear. We need to re-examine this concept that games should be "hard work". This is, at the end of the day, a recreational hobby. There is nothing wrong with a challenge, but 90% of the stumbling blocks in raids weren't the skill cap, it was the time sinks and the inherent irritations of trying to get 25-40 MMO denizens all pulling on the rope in the same direction. It was a headache then, it's a headache now, and I get enough headaches during the natural course of my life without paying a software developer to give me more. If you're talking about gating content with skill checks, I have no issue with that. If you're talking about gating content with "You must have 4 hours free to drag your rump through raid X four times a week" or "You must be in a guild with 60 other morons" then I'm afraid you and I have very different ideas on how to properly gate content in order to create a rewarding experience. Raid sizes have shrunk for a reason. Games are experimenting with drop in raids and public events for a reason. This "you and 24 of your closest friends" rubbish is bad design.
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit, and the emperor remains an emperor." - Neil Gaiman

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