SWTOR could use a "Karazhan"

STAR WARS: The Old Republic
SWTOR could use a "Karazhan"

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Phaedrynn

01.12.2012 , 01:33 PM \| #41	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by SOONERFREAK T5 was completely different as we couldn't get enough good raiders for 25 and the core group left. This was actually the biggest 'guild killer' in TBC. Making the transition from 10 to 25 was brutal as you had to attune (before they nerfed it) and gear up 25+ people in 10-mans.

Alcarinn

01.12.2012 , 01:45 PM \| #42	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Striker Aran was pretty harsh. I don't think it was doable without 2 warlocks initially. That was some of the most fun I ever had in a MMO though. Downing Aran for the first time and if I didn't keep my 2 banished and feared we'd probably wipe. I remember 1st time i played Aran... I was a resto druid and i got invited to another guilds run as only pug... they explained tactics and i didnt hear the part where you HAVE TO STAND STILL when circles come.... so 1 guy died circles came and i ran all over the place to battle ress the guy obviously blowing up entire raid... thinking *** happened. was such a great time indeed.

Tewnam

01.12.2012 , 01:45 PM \| #43	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Grissom Yeah no I wish you were right but REQUIRING 25 man raids past the only ONE ten man raid in the whole expansion is NOT making things accessible for casuel guilds. I was in the second best raiding guild on my server and did run a few 25 man raids and then decided it sucked and only raided kara the whole time. Some people HATE larger groups and the minute you start requiring those larger groups over the smaller ones, is the very minute you make end game content not accessable to the small group of 10 IRL friends in a guild that can now NOT run anything because they dont have the required HUGE group. Requiring 25 wasn't as big of a deal as you make it, unless you literally talk to no one outside of your own guild, in which case you might as well not be playing an MMO. My guild could barely make 10 people three times a week to run our Karazhan raids, but we did it and started in blues and greens like it was designed for. It was really hard, Moroes and Aran especially, but we progressed through and after a month or so eventually had all the bosses down. This was in the day and gear level where you stop-casted on bosses because your mana wouldn't last the entire fight, even chugging mana potions. Don't waste a single cast. After we got Kara down, we started talking to other small guilds and eventually found one to merge with and start running Gruul's lair. And the rest is history. Raiding just 3 times a week, I saw every single boss downed all the way up through and including M'uru pre-nerf (and later in WotLK sarth3d 10-man pre-Ulduar with only one night of attempts per week). You don't have to raid every single night to down content. What matters is how you manage the time you have. Talk about mistakes, learn from them. Don't just keep repeating the same mistakes over and over.

BloatedGuppy

01.12.2012 , 01:45 PM \| #44	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Mxconway Yeah, this is total bs. TBC was when Blizz made raiding very accessible to casual guilds. I know because I was in one. Sure we were a good 10+ months behind the progression guilds, but we got to see the raids and have fun at our own pace. I think your quote is more appropriate for Vanilla, especially Naxx [40] based on the percentages you've used in your rant. "Making raiding accessible to casuals" was the focal point of the whine of the person I was replying to. Apparently, allowing people access to content is Evil, and will begin the immediate collapse of a game. I used to run a raiding guild in WoW, and I raided in DAoC. I was too new to MMOs in general with EQ to ever get to the raid stage. Big complex encounters can be fun. I actually really enjoyed Karazhan. But nothing makes me hate raids as a concept faster than raiders, and if I hear one more variation on the "casuals want free epix kthxbye" argument I'm going to beat whatever arrogant talking head is spouting it with his own spreadsheet. Quote: Originally Posted by Tewnam Requiring 25 wasn't as big of a deal as you make it, unless you literally talk to no one outside of your own guild, in which case you might as well not be playing an MMO. My guild could barely make 10 people three times a week to run our Karazhan raids, but we did it and started in blues and greens like it was designed for. It was really hard, Moroes and Aran especially, but we progressed through and after a month or so eventually had all the bosses down. And while I'm at it, this fallacy needs to be put to bed too. The definition of "MMO" allows for more variation in gameplay than "raid or die". 25 man raids were God's punishment for an evil world, and 40 man raids were even worse. There's a REASON raid size keeps shrinking and shrinking as these games evolve. Large raids turn into an exercise in waiting, cat-herding, and logistics, in which 5% of your time is spent actually playing the game and 95% of your time is spent waiting on smoke breaks, dog walks, disconnects, afks, and listening to people shriek at one another in vent. You want to talk about anachronisms in MMO design? I give you the raid.
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit, and the emperor remains an emperor." - Neil Gaiman

Kurnea

01.12.2012 , 01:47 PM \| #45	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Alcarinn I remember 1st time i played Aran... I was a resto druid and i got invited to another guilds run as only pug... they explained tactics and i didnt hear the part where you HAVE TO STAND STILL when circles come.... so 1 guy died circles came and i ran all over the place to battle ress the guy obviously blowing up entire raid... thinking *** happened. was such a great time indeed. Yeah, Aran is really when people started to get 'personal accountablity' shoved through their heads, and people began scrutinizing each other like hell. "OMG, who the hell moved!?" "It was him, he moved!"

Faydra

01.12.2012 , 01:48 PM \| #46	Quote
The atmosphere (music, scenery, etc) and boss design of Kara was pretty dang cool. Some of trash was not so much fun (bleh - Curator to Shade; awesome Chess to Prince). Having Kara be the entry raid for 10 mans and then requiring guilds to have 25 mans to progress was not cool. The attunement process to Kara was cool the first time I did it. It was not so much fun the 10th time I did it to get another person so we could hopefully then move onto 25 mans. Running Kara the first few times was awesome. Running Kara and only being able to run Kara for several months because my guild got stuck on the 10 man to 25 man transition hump was awful. So, when people are asking for a Kara, I'd like another instance with the story and ambiance that Kara had, the great mix of boss fights/mechanics. However, where Kara was in the progression path and the work to get into Kara are things I hope to never have to experience again.
Why don't we have more fun on this ship?

Alcarinn

01.12.2012 , 01:53 PM \| #47	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Kurnea Yeah, Aran is really when people started to get 'personal accountablity' shoved through their heads, and people began scrutinizing each other like hell. "OMG, who the hell moved!?" "It was him, he moved!" Yeah probably... they didnt kick me or anything we did it after an hour or so. But it was pretty epic Vanilla and TBC were the best anyway... the feel and community was awesome it was way less dull than EVERGRIND and it had pretty good line of progression for my taste. epic gear meant actually epic and legendary was beyond expectations TBC went a little off with epic word since everything up to last boss in Kara and t4 should be blue but ok. we could live with kiddos flexing epeens in full purple.

sevenex

01.12.2012 , 01:55 PM \| #48	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Kabloosh I don't want everything to be handed to me but I don't want to be alienated because I decided to dps as a paladin over healing. I do like to push my character to the best of my ability. Its fun, however I don't think I need to spend hours a day researching everything. Well, one of my methods of learning is trial and error. Try something out, if it doesnt work I move onto something else instead of doing some stupid theorycrafting crap. However, people want you to go some stupid little cookie cutter set up to fit their stupid little preset design someone else came up with so they can "cruise" through the content following some sort of predetermined design. Where is the fun in that? I want to learn boss fights myself not watching a video about it. I however don't want to spend 3 weeks on the same stupid boss because the main tank's gear isn't good enough to handle the boss's "strike of impossibly stupid amount of damage you cannot handle until you reach this level of gear which will take you a month or 2 to achieve farming the 1st boss". I've got no problem running the last tier and clearing it out for the next 2-3 weeks to get geared up before facing the next content. However, I think boss mechanics should be more of an issue for success then gear itself. Well, those are two different things. I hope this game allows more than just the cookie cutter specs, but no matter what, when you break it down there will always be one spec that is just a little better than the others. There will also, always be people like me who use that spec. Now, if you're in a spec that's not optimal, but you still pull your own weight, that's all good by me. That's a different argument from a raid being too difficult for the majority of the population to access. I think you're spot on about the mechanics being more important than the gear itself. That's probably another reason that lots of people liked kara. The dragon with the beams (forget the name) was a pretty cool fight. Aron was fun. Prince was fun.

Wolfeisberg

01.12.2012 , 02:09 PM \| #49	Quote
Karazhan was fun for what I got to see of it. But it really needed to cut about 2/3rds of the trash mobs in that place. Really, those just got boring fast, and every trash mob pull was basically the same thing over and over again.

Greyfeld

01.12.2012 , 02:12 PM \| #50	Quote
Quote: Originally Posted by Maltuvion Funny how people usually rattle off a list of "OMG WOW WAS RUINED DUE TO... insert LFD or whatever" that was incorporated post-TBC while simultaneously stating WoW was fine before (implied as WoW was, apparently, 'ruined' by the institutionalization of these tools)... yet apparently TBC wasn't fine either for the exact diametrical opposite of the reasons previously stated to have ruined wow. It's really quite amusing to see some of the baddies whose career of failing seems neverending. Having cleared all TBC pre-nerf including Sunwell, it was easily the best time of WoW. Always something to shoot for, always something to do, always some goal in mind. It catered to skill more than anything else. I actually quit six months before WotLK came out. I could see the direction WoW was going in, with the institution of rep. grinding and welfare epics. That, in combination with the fact that I couldn't find a player to replace my arena partner that would randomly and consistently go MIA for days at a time, and I couldn't find a raiding guild that wasn't full of arrogant, abusive jackholes to save my life... well, in the end, I just couldn't take it any more. So even though a number of the reasons I quit were personal, underlying it was the fact that I was unhappy with the direction WoW was going, being heavily causual-oriented, and Blizzard's idea of "new content" being more repeatable crap to grind out day after day.
. <FinalWave>

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