Mitigation, the REAL problem. Also, operatives need a 2x dmg multiplier.

That's crazy talk! Next we'll be calling Operatives the best tanks because a good offense is the best defense!

Good lord. I was just rereading your quote from that insane old thread. I finally figured it out. He thinks the blade comes out of the hilt and wants to capture it with a "light box" to make it useless.

He didn't understand it was made of energy and constantly generating. He was thinking of a counter to a lightsaber in idiot terms. I'd just use a shotgun...

Insightful...

Assuming "Weapon damage" was a tell for Ranged/Melee class attacks:

All lvl 1 filler attacks.(All classes)

Sweeping Blaster (Merc)
Power Shot (Merc)
Rail Shot (BH)
Unload (BH)

Series of Shots (Sniper)
Headshot (Sniper)
Scattershot (Sniper)
Suppressive Fire (Sniper)
Takedown (Sniper)
Carbine Burst (Operative)
Leg Shot (Sniper)
Ambush (Sniper)
Overload Shot (Agent)
Followthrough (Sniper)

I didn't go through and parse out Sith classes since I am sure it would be comparable.

So while no the operative class itself doesn't have a great many Melee or Ranged class attacks, most of the damage types for them are kinetic or energy which is mitigated by my armor. So yes it is possible that a DPS juggernaught will do just as good as I do vs those specific attacks except that I also focus on my defense rating so I will dodge a decent amount too. But you also now have to admit that this same juggernaught will be a lot more succeptible to the attacks I posted above than I am since I will be using a shield offhand and have armor focusing on shielding and absorb.

What problem? The damage in the end balances out like I showed in my first post in this thread.

Balances out? I'm afraid we disagree.

I kind of miss my (crappy) rogue evasion tanking in WoW. Those were silly times.

I wasn't talking about Snipers. I was talking about operatives. (I really can't talk about Snipers, I think there are 6 on my server and I never see them. Don't know their normal rotation or Lethality rotation).

So lets revise your list.

Carbine Burst (Operative)
Overload Shot (Agent)
Rifle Shot (the freebie one, I added it for completeness)

Overload shot is their last ditch effort when everything else is on cooldown and they have Energy to burn. Carbine burst is rarely used by Operatives in either PvP or PvE. Rifle Shot is the freebie.

So exactly how much damage are you mitigating here with your Shields and Defense? Granted you still get half of your Armor against them, that's nice.

On to BH.

Rapid Shots (Both)
Unload (Both)
Rail Shot (Both)
Sweeping Blasters (Merc)

When was the last time you saw a Powertech use any of this crap but Rail Shot? When was the last time you saw a Merc using any of that stuff when he wasn't interrupted? Granted your Defense/Shield works a bit better here because of Rail Shot being fairly substantial, but in exchange for that most of their attacks go through not only your defenses, but your armor as well as it is Tech/Elemental. That and you can expect that Rail Shot to ignore anywhere between 30-90% of your armor.

Enjoy your Defense and Shield against Snipers and Marauders/Juggernauts (that aren't smart enough to be Rage spec that is), I'll be packing DPS gear that is useful against 100% of enemies rather than 20%. Since the gear switch my survivablity hasn't noticeably decreased by my effectiveness in PvP increased quite a bit.

While still having the same Armor mitigation.
While still providing Guard.

Still don't think anything needs looked at?

I suggest you try out using DPS gear with your Tank spec in PvP if you have comparable gear lying around. You've got nothing to lose and you might like it.


Edit:
For clarity, Defense doesn't work against Tech or Force attacks either. So you will do no better than the DPS Jugg. This was tested extensively by me.

See my post on page 51 made around 12:30am EST. I worked it out there. Then you can come back and try to tell me how wrong I am.

Your list is interesting, but very misleading. A lot of those abilities are talented and one person can only have a few of them at a time because they're either halfway or fully up the talent tree. Let's take Sage for example - Two of those Internal skills are talents in the Balance tree, One 11 pointer, one 31. The Third Internal skill is the Telekinetics tree's 31 point skill. And one of those Force Kinetic attacks is also an 11 point Talent in the Telekinetics tree. Scoundrel's it's almost identical and I'm sure this is the way it goes for every class. So while there are technically 4, any one Scoundrel or Sage will only have 2 or 3 of those Internal/Elemental skills depending on spec and some won't have all of those Force/Tech skills. And if you wanted to be thorough, you could point out that any Sentinel specced into Precision Slash has 100% Armor Penetration for 6 out of every 15 seconds of combat. You could also go into how much damage each classes skills do and what the cooldown's are for the potential uptime of these types of damage, if you wanted to be really proper and thorough. See where I'm going with this?

If you went into your list and took everything into account and you'd get a more accurate picture of how many skills each class is actually capable of doing. But to be honest what you're trying to do is say that certain classes are underpowered based on skill types, not taking into account what each skill does and how the class works. If you're making a comprehensive list for the purposes of analyzing what can be mitigated by a tank that's one thing. But what you're doing is trying to say certain classes are imbalanced for these reasons. That for one thing is a very myopic view of the classes overall, and if you want to discuss Jedi Knight balance issues in a more truthful, comprehensive way, there are threads for that.

And I don't want to point out the obvious, but tanky sword wielding classes in every game have to deal with armor mitigation, but that's also why your best targets are light or medium armored opponents. Since when does a melee spec class try to take out a Tank in any game? They usually don't. It's MMO game design.


Let's keep the discussion towards tanks and mitigation and away from incomplete and misleading attempts at analyzing at class balance.

In theory you'd be correct but in practice with abilities like Acid blade

Acid Blade
Instant
Energy: 15
Coats your instruments in acid, causing your next Hidden Strike or Backstab to deal an additional 1247 internal damage over 6 seconds and increase armor penetration by 50% for 15 seconds. This ability does not respect the global cooldown and does not break stealth.

A classes hardest hitting abilities are not being mitigated for a lot.