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Mitigation, the REAL problem. Also, operatives need a 2x dmg multiplier.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Mitigation, the REAL problem. Also, operatives need a 2x dmg multiplier.

Avison's Avatar


Avison
01.12.2012 , 09:28 AM | #551
Quote: Originally Posted by Asnine View Post
If you don't think tanks are useful in this game for PvP I politely suggest you L2P.

AoE taunt / ST taunt / guard alone makes a tank invaluable.
Tanks are useful but not nearly as much as a dps. Since even when guarding the damage goes somewhere. Taunts are quite respectable at reducing opponents damage in pvp but they will never know who taunted them and thus won't simply be attacking you.

It comes down to a dps spec dropping taunts properly is vastly more effective than a "tank". Because a "tank" only has marginally more survivability than a dps spec'd juggernaut.

Avison's Avatar


Avison
01.12.2012 , 09:29 AM | #552
Quote: Originally Posted by ltankhsd View Post
People don't just spam one ability unless they are idiot bads. They have a wide variety of abilities to choose from and not all of those abilities will be Force or Tech. The ones that aren't will trigger shields so when you look at the totality of the circumstances I will be more tanky than a Powertech or Jugg who just also happens to wear heavy armor.
Well when dealing with a tank of a heavy armor class you should probably spam tracer missile and grav round. At least till you have full stacks.

Avison's Avatar


Avison
01.12.2012 , 09:32 AM | #553
Quote: Originally Posted by CapuchinSeven View Post
Then it isn't a tank. There is no such thing as a tank class in TOR, just a tank spec and that isn't a tank spec it's a DPS spec and it's not different from the Jedi Knight Focus tree which is used by the Sentinel and the Guardian.

It's a DPS tree, if you're using it then you're DPS.

TORBeta 101.
Nitpicking. I was replying to someone that was referring to a Juggernaut spec'd dps. You can't achieve 200k+ damage whatsoever as a Juggernaut spec'd tank in tank gear unless you're farming damage.

chainsawsamurai's Avatar


chainsawsamurai
01.12.2012 , 09:32 AM | #554
Quote: Originally Posted by ltankhsd View Post
Torhead unfortunately doesn't have the attack types listed for each ability on their site and I am at work so can't load up the game to hit P and look at my list. But attacks can come from range and still not be Ranged for the purposes of Shielding since they could be Force or Tech instead. It's just a way to catagorize attacks and I think that is one of the main reasons people are getting confused.
The easiest way to browse TORhead for what attacks you can and cannot mitigate with Defense/Shield is that they will say they deal "Weapon damage." This is uniform for all Melee and Ranged class attacks, conversely all Tech or Force attacks will state some other type of damage (Kinetic, Elemental, Energy, or Internal). I've been through them all in the last few days while doing my testing.

The term "Weapon damage" is essentially a stand in for either Kinetic or Energy Damage depending on what weapon you have equipped.

Just bear in mind that "Weapon Damage" doesn't really exist in game and is just a tooltip catch all. It complicates the situation and causes a bit of confusion, but looking for those attacks on the TORhead tooltips is the easiest way to do your homework.
21/2/18 - Carolina Parakeet

Gone, but not forgotten.

Krylaancelo's Avatar


Krylaancelo
01.12.2012 , 09:32 AM | #555
My question relates to accuracy being "useless."

I assume you meant for classes that don't rely upon weapon damage attacks, yes? I still regularly get parried, dodged, etc. on my Sith Assassin and I imagine having more accuracy would benefit me because a large portion of my damage is "white damage."

Just wanted to verify: Accuracy is beneficial to me, yes?

ltankhsd's Avatar


ltankhsd
01.12.2012 , 09:33 AM | #556
Quote: Originally Posted by Avison View Post
The problem is that with the highest normally achievable numbers you're only going to get an additional 10% mitigation from shields against weapon attacks. Dodging seems broke entirely.

So is trading away all dps stats worth it for a 10% resistance increase against less than 50% of all attacks? Which, and I hate doing this because it's fuzzy math, actually a 5%ish increase to mitigation?

Hell no it isn't. And the diminishing returns from those stats are insane compared to strength and power (which has none). So if I spec dps... I can pop offensive stims and adrenals to do respectable damage. And while spec'd dps I can even keep the skill "Invincible" and keep my primary forms of mitigation.
Once again 99% of statistics on the internet are made up on the spot.

My ACTUAL shield chance and absorption rating as posted earlier was 40.99% chance vs melee or ranged attacks and 36.67% absorption against those attacks. There are plenty of melee and ranged classified attacks that shielding works against.

Venilator's Avatar


Venilator
01.12.2012 , 09:35 AM | #557
Quote: Originally Posted by Asnine View Post
If you don't think tanks are useful in this game for PvP I politely suggest you L2P.

AoE taunt / ST taunt / guard alone makes a tank invaluable.
I am playing unlike you, ignoramus. A dps spec jug can do ALL OF THAT without gimping damage. So I suggest you learn to play before you come onto these forums and spew non-sense garbage.

Garbald's Avatar


Garbald
01.12.2012 , 09:36 AM | #558
Quote: Originally Posted by ltankhsd View Post
Torhead unfortunately doesn't have the attack types listed for each ability on their site and I am at work so can't load up the game to hit P and look at my list. But attacks can come from range and still not be Ranged for the purposes of Shielding since they could be Force or Tech instead. It's just a way to catagorize attacks and I think that is one of the main reasons people are getting confused.

I donīt really know why you are still trying to convince everyone about this, when most have excepted this about 30 pages ago

The problem remains however that exactly this makes tank equip and tank skills pretty useless in pvp.
What sets a tank apart in swtor is the ability to use a shield and the tank trees and items reflect that, they almost exclusively focus on + shield stuff (increasing absorb and or increasing chance to proc)

In pvp however >50% of the abilities used just ignore this main tank asset, that sets tanks apart from damage specs.
This simply canīt be working as intended, except if BWs idea of "reinventing tanks in pvp" means that tanks should not be skilled, geared or played with tanking in mind but like any other direct damage class with a minimal increase in defenses against a minimal subset of abilities.

chainsawsamurai's Avatar


chainsawsamurai
01.12.2012 , 09:36 AM | #559
Quote: Originally Posted by ltankhsd View Post
Once again 99% of statistics on the internet are made up on the spot.

My ACTUAL shield chance and absorption rating as posted earlier was 40.99% chance vs melee or ranged attacks and 36.67% absorption against those attacks. There are plenty of melee and ranged classified attacks that shielding works against.
Name some. To give an example.

Name some from practical gameplay from say a Powertech, or Merc, or Operative.

Quote:
In pvp however >50% of the abilities used just ignore this main tank asset, that sets tanks apart from damage specs.
This simply canīt be working as intended, except if BWs idea of "reinventing tanks in pvp" means that tanks should not be skilled, geared or played with tanking in mind but like any other direct damage class with a minimal increase in defenses against a minimal subset of abilities.
In fairness, the tanking stances alone are a substantial defensive increase. Far more substantial than anything you could spec or gear for even in an ideal environment.
21/2/18 - Carolina Parakeet

Gone, but not forgotten.

Avison's Avatar


Avison
01.12.2012 , 09:39 AM | #560
Quote: Originally Posted by ltankhsd View Post
Once again 99% of statistics on the internet are made up on the spot.

My ACTUAL shield chance and absorption rating as posted earlier was 40.99% chance vs melee or ranged attacks and 36.67% absorption against those attacks. There are plenty of melee and ranged classified attacks that shielding works against.
Those numbers add up to an average of 15% damage reduction against weapon damage attacks. Not so far off from me. Are you a juggernaut? Or a powertech? Or even an assassin?

I'm a Juggernaut. Are you popping relics?

Details please. I'm here to make a claim and get accurate information and discourse. Not "teh tankz r teh finez" and "[internet meme quote] I don't agree with you, here's no information why".

Please, details.