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George I would like to know why

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
George I would like to know why

Maxxacre's Avatar


Maxxacre
01.11.2012 , 03:38 PM | #21
Not every class has a knockback. Not every class needs a knockback. Personally, I think it would be balanced if they gave Marauders the single target Force Push though. But as far as the argument that the Marauders have an extra lightsaber....

Seriously? It's just a stat stick you know... purely visual. An offhand focus is the same thing.
"Paper is fine, nerf rock!" --Scissors

Slaxon's Avatar


Slaxon
01.11.2012 , 03:52 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by shamrockjew View Post
Extra.... lightsaber....
Traditional single saber all the way dude. It's the bomb.

Varteras's Avatar


Varteras
01.11.2012 , 04:02 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by CVSiN View Post
And youre holding a FOCUS that gives the EXACT same stats.. or even better a SHIELD that does better mitigation than ALL our tricks put together..
AND you do within a FRACTION of the same damage we do.. with 100x the survivability.



CRY MORE.

A
A shield that does better? Not really. Not even close truth be told. For a DPS Juggernaut to make any truly effective use of a shield they would need to be in Soresu Form. Without Soresu that shield only has a 5% chance to activate. With Soresu it goes up to 20% and that's still only a 1-in-5 chance of activating. There's a good chance it won't even activate at all before you die. In both cases the damage resisted is 20%. In order to make both stats go up higher the DPS Juggernaut would need to sacrifice a lot of DPS stats to increase Shield Rating and Shield Absorption. Which means their damage output goes down nevermind the fact that they're in a tanking form with specs that were designed to utilize either a pure DPS form or a balanced form that actually doesn't get any real durability increases from its preferred tree. At that rate you basically have a Juggernaut that lacks the survival talents of an Immortal and doesn't have the DPS output of Vengeance or Rage. Not very ideal at all, is it?

Compare this to Cloak of Pain. An ability with a 6 second duration and a 1 minute cooldown that reduces all damage by 20% and that as long as you're being attacked could be refreshed all the way up to half of its cooldown. Yes, it can only protect you once every 1.5 seconds but that damage reduction is guaranteed. Plus, any spec of Marauder could go into Cloak of Annihilation which would allow the use of Retaliation to reduce the cooldown by 6 seconds.

Nevermind that the Annihilation tree gives self-healing through bleed crits, Rupture can reduce movement speed by 30% for 6 seconds, a 15-second reduction for the Obfuscate cooldown, and allows you to take no damage when Force Camouflage is active. Carnage can give you damage reduction or movement increases depending on what form you're in, a 30% reduction in the damage you take from AoE skills, allow Deadly Throw to immobilize a target, and allow your Force Camouflage to break movement-impairing effects. Heck even the Rage tree gives Marauders a defensive talent that increases damage reduction by 2% and takes Undying Rage's 90 second cooldown and makes it 60 seconds. That's something a Rage-specced Juggernaut doesn't get.

You have Saber Ward just like Juggernauts do minus the tiny 2-seconds where it is 100% melee and ranged defense for us instead of 50%. Obfuscate which makes an enemy almost completely unable to hit you for 6 seconds. Force Camouflage which gives you a chance to escape. Honestly 4 seconds is enough time to put good distance between you and your opponent and especially helpful if there are places to hide nearby. Undying Rage makes you virtually indestructible for 5 seconds which when coupled with Obfuscate means you could very well give yourself an 11-second window to go wild on your enemy. If it doesn't work, Force Camo and hope they don't guess right where you went.

Sorry for the long post but I will say this if nothing else. Based on a recent post from Bioware they do feel that DPS Juggernauts don't quite have the survivability they should and plan on improving it.
Quote:
Unless you're a stockholder, a Bioware employee, or employee of a rival company... if you're on forums and going out of your way to attack or defend a videogame then I would say you're spending way too much energy doing so and not enough energy trying to figure out what in the world is wrong with you.

Slashrandom's Avatar


Slashrandom
01.11.2012 , 04:08 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Noth View Post
Powertechs do get a pull and Operatives get ample stuns.
And? I was disputing the claim that Marauders were the only ones without a knockback.

Pappus's Avatar


Pappus
01.11.2012 , 06:56 PM | #25
Operatives don't have a knockback either.

Obfuscate just works against non tech/force attacks so its uses are very limited.

Doesn't do a thing against e.g. sorc, tracer missile spam and the list goes on. In short obfuscate works against white dmg. Tha tbeing only autoattacks is quite a big exageration.

Just don't throw it on merc/operative/sorcs and it will have some effect.

Not even sure why you guys list cloak of pain it just sucks with the small dmg only skilled is it even worth pressing a button for it.

Still I would like to have force push like the juggers especially to isolate your targets at least a bit.

gibmachine's Avatar


gibmachine
01.11.2012 , 07:00 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Noth View Post
Marauders also get cloak of pain, mortal strike, an in combat cloak as an "Oh ****" button and skill that reduces damage by huge amounts, multiple group buffs, self heals, passive increase in run speed, a range root, and I could go on. Funny thing is that marauders have better defensive cooldown than the supposed defensive AC
I'd give up Mortal Strike for Force Push any day. As things stand right now, MS has absolutely no use. It's damage is laughable and the healing debuff is redundant when existing pvp is centered around who can zerg faster.

When ranked matches kick in, maybe MS will shine but right now - not really.

Passive run speed increase is only in Carnage. So is the ranged root.

That said, I'm not trying to pick an argument about which AC has better cds. What's bothering me the most about all this is that during almost every cutscene with violence involved, SW uses Push - well guess what, couple of seconds later, we forget how we did it.

DakimDragco's Avatar


DakimDragco
01.11.2012 , 07:41 PM | #27
People talk about us marauders like we have a golden class that is like a god. We are far from gods, not even demi-gods. In anny one-on-one with a jug, the marauder is going to be wormfood in less time it takes for him to charge in and selct cloak of pain, which is a laughable skill.

We have the survivability of an ant, and while we do DPS good, anything beyond weak oponents have a chance to realy get us killed quick if given a chance to focus on us. None of our CD are any use against anything but Weak targets, except for force choke which roots us in place (Juggs get a non-chaneled choke if they spec it right)

As i said in other threads, it not that we are bad, underpowered or in anyway inferior to jugs, but solo, we dont have the survivability to hold out long, we are a class that needs cannon fodder to distract enemies while we wreak havoc. And unfortuetly non of our companions survive much longer then us, so again, solo isnt our thing.

Greystonez's Avatar


Greystonez
01.11.2012 , 08:17 PM | #28
I rarely see juggernauts cry about all the awesome tools and superior damage marauders get, but it seems marauders are constantly lamenting over the superiority of the juggernaut.

Which is complete horse crap.

The ONLY things dps spec juggernauts have that is of truly significant advantage over marauders is force push and pvp group utility in the form of taunt, aoe taunt and an aoe snare.

What marauders lack in group utility other than their fury buffs they gain in raw 1v1 killing power and defensive cd's.

An immortal tank will be far more survivable than a marauder and has a great overall selection of cc's and utility, but do pretty crap damage.

A dps spec juggernaut has MARGINAL damage reduction superiority vs a marauder and has WAY less damage outside of "1" spec (rage) which is a 1 trick pony AND marauders have far superior defensive cooldowns vs dps juggernauts.

It's really getting old hearing this bologna.

My juggernaut is almost 44 and I can tell you the dps is not particularly impressive and the defensive potential outside of using split aggro with your companion and rotating your cc attacks/using saber ward is not that great.

I plan on maining both a juggernaut and a marauder and my marauder is currently 17 and the difference already in killing power vs my jugg at the same level is huge.


I really think it's a l2p issue for alot of people.

An immortal juggernaut is a straight up tank. A dps juggernaut is really a combat support specialist meaning they do decent damage and have high group utility.

A marauder on the other hand specializes in bringing the pain to single targets and they do that very, very well.

I have had zero issues leveling my juggernaut as dps spec 50% of the time using vette or jaesa only despite dps juggs inferiority to marauders and let me tell you that marauder is far superior to dps juggernaut in practical defensive cd's for pve. Combined with superior dps it really makes me laugh when people ***** and moan about how hard it is to level a marauder when it's clearly them that suck with the class. It's pretty common that people don't want to admit that they just plain suck at something and this class is no exception to that.

Seriously roll another class if you're having trouble.

Noth's Avatar


Noth
01.11.2012 , 08:18 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by gibmachine View Post
I'd give up Mortal Strike for Force Push any day. As things stand right now, MS has absolutely no use. It's damage is laughable and the healing debuff is redundant when existing pvp is centered around who can zerg faster.

When ranked matches kick in, maybe MS will shine but right now - not really.

Passive run speed increase is only in Carnage. So is the ranged root.

That said, I'm not trying to pick an argument about which AC has better cds. What's bothering me the most about all this is that during almost every cutscene with violence involved, SW uses Push - well guess what, couple of seconds later, we forget how we did it.
My point is that the classes are different. You have tools many juggs would give an arm for. You know how much I want undying rage and cloak of pain?

Also you have tools for staying close and keeping close in Annihilation as well. You have tools spread throughout your talent trees. Juggernauts get unstoppable which is simply right after leap and they are easily kitable again.
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