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Mitigation, the REAL problem. Also, operatives need a 2x dmg multiplier.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Mitigation, the REAL problem. Also, operatives need a 2x dmg multiplier.

beliglath's Avatar


beliglath
01.11.2012 , 03:15 PM | #431
Quote: Originally Posted by Boarg View Post
Well, lets count…classes that rely heavily on weapon damage:

Shadow/Assassin
Gunslinger/Sniper
Sentinel/Marauder
Guardian/Juggernaut

That's 4/8. Seriously, take all the weapon damage abilities off the bars of any of these classes and see how horribly gimped their damage is.

Of the remaining, Sage/Sorc tends to do a very normalized sort of damage that's easily disrupted. Probably, if Scoundrel/Operative and Commando/Mercenary just get their damage types tweaked a bit on a couple well targeted abilities, then things would probably be in a really good place and there would be no need to tweak tank mechanics themselves in PvP.
sorry to burst this but marauders and jugss that do DPS rely heavly on force attacks and asassins can go into madness to avoid tanks, the only ones affected are the ones that dont know the pvp spec tanks and snipers/gunslingers.
Ferocity

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A True Warrior Never Escapes From Battle

Dosvidaniya's Avatar


Dosvidaniya
01.11.2012 , 03:20 PM | #432
Quote: Originally Posted by Boarg View Post
L2R tooltips.

Here's a breakdown on the type of attack you typically take from a Shadow/Assassin that I posted earlier in this thread already:

Clairvoyant Strike - Weapon Damage - (bread & butter ability that generates procs/stacks to use other stuff)
Shadow Strike - Weapon Damage - (hard hitting positional attack only used with a proc…unless you're bad)
Spinning Strike - Weapon Damage - (Execute ability)
Saber Strike - Weapon Damage - (free attack for when low on Force)
Project - Kinetic Damage - (6s CD, used with stacked buffs)
Force Breach - Internal Damage - (~15s CD, used with stacked buffs)
Shadow Technique (procs) - Internal Damage - (small passive damage)

Notice all the weapon damage??? Fully affected by Defense and Shield stats. Shadow/Assassin is not the only class where this is the case.
1. Why on earth would you still try to use that rotation against a tank? I play an assassin. When I come against a tank, I don't spam melee abilities. When project hits harder than the other attacks, why would you still use them as top priority?

2. There are two other trees that are less dependent on weapon damage. But, it was convenient for you to ignore them, wasn't it?

The fact is that you can still get around the tank stats. Yes, switching abilities costs you damage. So, the tank stats did accomplish it for the few weapon-damage classes with weapon-damage specs. However, they peak fast. It takes very little tank gear to push project to be a top priority ability. The same goes for other abilities that bypass tank stats. After that point, what good do the tank stats do? They'll help against some failures that don't know how to switch and the remaining weapon damage rotations. That's a really, really small amount. The tank stat allocation design is broken.

Boarg's Avatar


Boarg
01.11.2012 , 03:32 PM | #433
Quote: Originally Posted by beliglath View Post
sorry to burst this but marauders and jugss that do DPS rely heavly on force attacks and asassins can go into madness to avoid tanks, the only ones affected are the ones that dont know the pvp spec tanks and snipers/gunslingers.
You need to take a closer look at their main dps abilities. Lots of weapon damage in there. There's some opportunity to try to avoid weapon damage types, but doing so gimps damage by itself as well as leaving a lot of GCD's that just have to be filled with weapon damage regardless.

Neurok's Avatar


Neurok
01.11.2012 , 03:42 PM | #434
This thread explains a lot.. my kinetic shadow feels so very squishy in pvp.

I hoped SWTOR tanks could be compared to WAR tanks, with high mitigation and guard to make them very viable in pvp.. but alas

Guess I'll just go dps then

Boarg's Avatar


Boarg
01.11.2012 , 03:43 PM | #435
Quote: Originally Posted by Dosvidaniya View Post
1. Why on earth would you still try to use that rotation against a tank? I play an assassin. When I come against a tank, I don't spam melee abilities. When project hits harder than the other attacks, why would you still use them as top priority?

2. There are two other trees that are less dependent on weapon damage. But, it was convenient for you to ignore them, wasn't it?

The fact is that you can still get around the tank stats. Yes, switching abilities costs you damage. So, the tank stats did accomplish it for the few weapon-damage classes with weapon-damage specs. However, they peak fast. It takes very little tank gear to push project to be a top priority ability. The same goes for other abilities that bypass tank stats. After that point, what good do the tank stats do? They'll help against some failures that don't know how to switch and the remaining weapon damage rotations. That's a really, really small amount. The tank stat allocation design is broken.
I didn't list a "rotation." I was grouping the types of damage together.

And of course, I use abilities like Project and Force Breach against a tank as much as possible, but you can't just cut out weapon damage entirely without gimping your damage altogether. Project is weak for Infiltration without preceeding it with two Clairvoyant Strikes. Force Breach is lackluster without building up the buff stack. It's just a fact most Shadow/Assassin damage still comes from Weapon damage, even when trying to max out non-weapon damage sources. You can prioritize Project all you want, but it still has a 6s CD.

As for the other two specs... Yeah, proportion of weapon damage is smaller, but a big chunk of their overall damage is still weapon damage and mitigated by tank stats. And even with that "disadvantage" of more weapon damage, Infiltration is still the overall stronger PvP spec compared to either one.

Zintair's Avatar


Zintair
01.11.2012 , 03:48 PM | #436
Quote: Originally Posted by Neurok View Post
This thread explains a lot.. my kinetic shadow feels so very squishy in pvp.

I hoped SWTOR tanks could be compared to WAR tanks, with high mitigation and guard to make them very viable in pvp.. but alas

Guess I'll just go dps then
If I remember correctly the Shield could actually block magical attacks in WAR. Shield Blocked everything and Parry blocked melee only. Can't quite remember. I'm surprised this is an issue because I know Mythic is working in the background at BW the problem is people who are saying things like... "working as intended"

There is no way this is "working as intended" and seems to fall into the box of other mechanics that are broken such as the animation differences between Republic and Empire and the differences between Op and Scoundrel.

This however effects all classes and needs to be fixed because the faceroll PvP 4 man groups are wiping the floor with me and its becoming very annoying to live about 5-7 seconds to a Bounty Hunter if my Resilience is on cooldown. (I'm a Shadow)
Joriana Severblade - Jedi Guardian - Defense
Zintair Severblade - Jedi Shadow - Kinetic Combat
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Calibretto's Avatar


Calibretto
01.11.2012 , 03:55 PM | #437
This is scary, scary news for someone leveling a tank who enjoys pvp'ing a lot. I don't want me active defense abilities to be my only defense; I want to actually feel tanky in exchange for the damage I'm losing.

Nohoth's Avatar


Nohoth
01.11.2012 , 03:58 PM | #438
Really Bioware? 23,000 views, 44 pages, and nothing as much as a reply to let me know if the set of gear i farmed is worthless or just bugged.


To the people trying to defend this, and saying it's the way it was intended, you have no idea what your talking about. as a shield vanguard a good portion of my abilitys depend on my shield going off, like getting ammo or refreshing stockstrike. so when i dueled a sorc today on Ilum guess what I was at a sevre disadvantage to him cause I had count em 13 worthless talent points that all were based off my shiled proc. and since it never went off once in 3 duels all those talents went to waste.

I am sorry but I am not ok with my pvp tank gear I farmed, & almost half my tanking talents being worthless to 5/8 ACs in the game.

RoadtoArkham's Avatar


RoadtoArkham
01.11.2012 , 03:59 PM | #439
As a DPS player, through and through, I'm reluctant to give this any support. Too many bad memories of never being able to take down a Paladin in WoW with my Rogue

But this thread needs attention. I have to agree that it is an issue when I, as an Operative, do not hesitate to attack tanks knowing I can pull it off. As much as I despise incessant complaining and whining, this is a very real issue, with plenty of evidence and well-written arguments behind it.

One would hope that a fix to this would also help balance out some of the insane burst we do as Operatives. Hell, it might not even be our classes fault!

For everyone who plans on unsubscribing or quitting, just remember that the game just came out. Give it time. Bioware will take care of our issues and I'm confident they hear our voices. Unfortunately, important issues like this are occluded by the incessant, poorly-written QQ.
Hail to the King, baby.

Leiloni's Avatar


Leiloni
01.11.2012 , 04:00 PM | #440
Quote: Originally Posted by CHRISGG View Post
That's not true at all, I don't know where you got this idea. The vast majority of abilities deal damage that's hit by armor. Most classes get maybe 2 or 3 that aren't.
This is what the OP left out. Which and how many skills actually deal Internal damage. Not many.

While internal and elemental damage bypasses armor, DPS spec Scoundrel/Ops and Sages/Sorcs have two attacks at most that deal internal/elemental damage and they are mostly on CDs because they are the big class defining skills. The bread and butter attacks that they spend most of their time using are energy or weapon attacks which are mitigated by armor.
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1753652#edit1753270