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Why is there a copy protection system in the graphics, and is it crippling the game?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Why is there a copy protection system in the graphics, and is it crippling the game?

StephenReid's Avatar

01.11.2012 , 12:33 PM | #471
Quote: Originally Posted by Tiron_Raptor View Post
One thing I've noted, is that the size of the beta client dropped by a tremendous amount, in excess of 10GB I believe it was, between the first and second beta weekends I participated in. At about this same time, the NDA was lifted. Things I've heard also seem to suggest it might've been about then when the high resolution textures were disabled.

This could suggest that the remote renderer was added at this time, a large portion of the assets were removed to the server, and the high res textures were disabled to aid the performance of the remote renderer. This would explain why people could run high quality textures no problem in beta, but have bioware disable them anyway.
I'm going to ask the development team to look into this, but I'd ask you to pull back on some of the more extreme speculation. Posts like this do not help us to have rational informed discussions about the issues that we are facing.

There is, to my knowledge, no single DLL that's responsible for a multitude of problems across the game. For example, our 'ability delay' issue is being addressed by the development team right now, and I've been told there are dozens of fixes potentially being looked at to help improve things. There's no single magic fix (although some fixes may have more of an effect than others).

I'll also say right now that we're not 'remotely rendering' textures and sending to your client via your internet connection; that would be some impressive technology and if we were doing it, is likely something we'd have talked about before now.

I'll seek developer comment on this, but I just want to caution anyone from overreacting.

GHeissi's Avatar

01.11.2012 , 12:33 PM | #472
Quote: Originally Posted by Exilious View Post
English, French, German. Each is roughly 7gb. Comes out exactly right. English only is 20gb. Yours (with 2) is 27gb. Beta was 34gb.
ok, that actually makes sense.

nonforma's Avatar

01.11.2012 , 12:34 PM | #473
The personal attacks are pointless. I will point out, however, that they keep bumping the thread, and the worse they get the more likely a mod will have to step in and close the thread. So let's try to be civil?

djdee's Avatar

01.11.2012 , 12:34 PM | #474
Guys, please don't forget that finding something including the word "remoterenderer" on your own PC means nothing.

The server-client model (ie something involving a remote renderer, where remote is your own machine through loopback) is often used in multicore rendering and IPC calls.

I know it is easy to get fueled by something like this, but as a few guys have advocated, please use reason before jumping to conclusions.

Even though the OP maintains that only a portion of a 3D model would need to be protected (and thus re-sent) I believe the simple fact that the engine still needs to sync it up for everyone would make it unfeasible in hub areas (as evidenced in the post by StephenReid).

If you actually look up time-rewrite lag compensation in engines such as the Source engine, or more recently, Battlefield 3, you realize that the amount of data actually transferred for sync-up is text size, ie as small as possible.

Just food for thought.
See ya on the chronostream, time jockey!
Shoot straight. Conserve ammo. And never, EVER cut a deal with a dragon.
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zerosaint's Avatar

01.11.2012 , 12:35 PM | #475
As noted this would absolutely explain why the client which was listed near 30gb has shrunk to 17gb. I'd already kind of given up on SWTOR, but I think this will be the straw for me. Sad thing is that there was a lot to enjoy and I am actually going to miss it.

But when I stop having fun I take my money and go. That said, this, should it be valid is going to put a major black eye on BW's pretty face.

Paganini's Avatar

01.11.2012 , 12:35 PM | #476
It did seem my first beta weekend ran a bit smoother than launch. I'm not sure if it was as big of a difference that something this drastic would cause though.

miliways's Avatar

01.11.2012 , 12:37 PM | #477
Quote: Originally Posted by Tiron_Raptor View Post
Stopped reading here. I've told you approximately 4 or 5 times now that streaming of textures or animations has never been postulated.

Streaming of specific parts of the scene, probably just characters, after having been rendered on the server has been posulated, but is thought to be highly unrealistic and very unlikely.

Streaming of some MODELS from the server to the client, to be 'remote rendered' in the second process has been postulated, and is thought to be the most likely manifestation of the theory if it is in fact true.

Every thing you say continues to harp on about streaming textures and animations, despite the fact that it's never been suggested that these things were streamed.

I'm just going to stop even paying attention every time you start spouting these ridiculously far off the mark bits of nonsense.
I just can't keep your "hypothesis" straight, you aren't being very clear.

So its not textures or animations now, but "some models" that are being streamed and used by the second process or decrypted or something...

Again, same point works. Models are going to be exponentially larger files than textures.

Are they constantly streamed, or stored locally? If they're stored locally, then staying in one area should allow you to buffer up all the models and your performance should improve. Is that the case? If they aren't being stored, then which models are streamed? If its just your model, WHY? That doesn't accomplish anything for any reason. Your model would be viewable by someone else, and their model would be viewable by you. So that data is still out there, stored on SOMEBODY's local machine, so why not store it on yours? Is it more than just your player model? Then what? For what arbitrary reason? What would it accomplish? It would have to be ALL player models, and by the previous argument, you can't buffer them. So then, that means somehow the game is streaming to you EVERY player model over and over in real-time for every frame. Your bandwidth would explode.

SWTOR never uses more than a few kb/s unless it is downloading a patch. So thats not happening. The traffic we see with SWTOR is in the same ballpark as other MMOs. Therefor, it is purely game state data, and is not streaming any additional data.

Try downloading the streaming WoW client without main data. While you play, the game runs smoothly (the engine isn't effected by lack of assets) and many things are just very, very low texture while you start playing. The game will be pulling those assets down as fast as it can, so your internet connection will go up dramatically, to the hundreds of kb/s, and the texture quality will slowly, SLOWLY, improve. (because it takes minutes to load in textures, you can't stream ALL of them instantly in real-time.) If textures take that long, models would take longer. You would be sitting at a very black screen for minutes, then one model would show up, then another, slowly. And thats if you're caching the models, buffering them, which we already agreed you can test and prove isn't going on.

The performence problems are not huge and slow at start, and then the game gets smooth. Instead, the game looks pretty good, you've got good models and textures almost as soon as you're done loading, the second your computer can move them from HD to RAM to VRAM, and yet you've got small performance delays across the board. This is an unoptimized game engine, not massive data streaming.

Ridiculously far off the mark bits of nonsense?? Maybe you are just trolling. I guess I lose.

Sannhet's Avatar

01.11.2012 , 12:37 PM | #478
I had this mental image of a forum rep running into Ohlen's office yelling "SIR, THEY'RE ONTO US!" after reading the OP. That being said I'll just sit back and watch to see if/when this is confirmed.

miliways's Avatar

01.11.2012 , 12:38 PM | #479
Quote: Originally Posted by stephenreid View Post

i'll also say right now that we're not 'remotely rendering' textures and sending to your client via your internet connection; that would be some impressive technology and if we were doing it, is likely something we'd have talked about before now.

I'll seek developer comment on this, but i just want to caution anyone from overreacting.
bwahaha, ^ this.

Ossos's Avatar

01.11.2012 , 12:39 PM | #480
Quote: Originally Posted by StephenReid View Post
It doesn't help us to have rational informed discussions about the issues that we are facing.

That's just win right there.
Preventing Hackers and Exploiters from ruining the game is not a priority. Preventing you from mentioning the fact that they exist and go unpunished is.