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Why is there a copy protection system in the graphics, and is it crippling the game?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Why is there a copy protection system in the graphics, and is it crippling the game?

Sirsri's Avatar


Sirsri
01.11.2012 , 11:27 AM | #391
So a few things: First off, there's going to be a variant on copy protection systems for the entire client. Any piece of executable code will need to be verified every time the game is run, as well as running processes to poke and prod at your running system to watch for 'intrusion' (injection attacks basically). On WoW the security suite is called 'warden' and periodically sends back headers for all open windows on your machine, it's watching to see if you're running known exploits, of if you get caught with an exploit, what it was called.

Secondly. You're connecting to a lot of parts with TOR, and there are a lot of overlapping systems. I'm not entirely being critical here, but for example, the space game seems to sometimes be on top of the regular game, your companions will occasionally flicker in and out when returning from missions that sort of thing. It's probably spawning several parts to accomplish several things. For people who played in the Labour day beta, you'll remember there was a period where you could run around the world and talk fine, but you couldn't actually fight anything because lag was too high. That's a matter of talking to several different sub components. I would not be surprised if there's a base client that's running (which is the same for everyone), and it acts a server for the front end of the graphics system and so on.

The high res textures thing, just in general, seems like it's either a driver bug, or just an error state if it cannot load the high res pack correctly because it's hitting the 2GB memory limit if isn't large address aware (or any number of things along those lines, they did change the file formats 4 or 5 times, they might have broken it as part of that). There's not much that would be deeply secret about their models, all of that stuff is in binary blobs, but was in several different formats during beta, so you could pull it all out from one of the earlier clients pretty easily. The graphics are all EA/BioWare anyway, the music you might need to mungle, because the rights for that are still owned by someone else (even if EA has the rights to use them in TOR, it doesn't have the right to sell it as a standalone CD of John Williams greatest hits sort of thing), but that's a much different problem.

Granrick's Avatar


Granrick
01.11.2012 , 11:27 AM | #392
Quote: Originally Posted by Tiron_Raptor View Post
The primary, widely accepted theory for how light propagated for over a century was that there was a medium, called the luminous aether, that acted as the carrier for light. The first test anybody managed to come up with to try to detect it was the very famous Michelson-Morley experiment, using the world's first interferometer. This experiment came up with quite likely the most famous null result in history: the result they got was within the known experimental error of the device, and thus quite possibly really zero.

Further refinements of the experiment were carried out with various advances, the overwhelming majority continued to show results within the error of the device, even as the sensitivity was increased and the error reduced. This didn't shake belief in the Aether, which had been accepted for so long hardly anyone dared question it.

The experiments assumed that the aether moved, by the motion of the earth through it if nothing else, and tried to detect the variation in the speed of light caused by the movement of the aether.

The series of null results, however, led to a few people trying to rectify the theory to fit the data, this led to all sorts of novel extensions on the existing theory, but the aether was still generally accepted as fact.

The first failure to detect the aether happened in 1887. It wasn't until 1905 that someone finally managed to put everything together in a new, aetherless theory. His name was Einstein, and he'd just come up with the Theory of Special Relativity.

Acceptance was not instantaneous, it took a lot of testing, further null results on aether detecting experiments, and a lot of other experiments testing Einstein's new theory before it largely displaced the idea of the Aether. This happened about 1911.

The process here is what's important: A theory is put forth, data is gathered in an attempt to find out if it's correct. Based on the data that comes in, the theory is revised, over and over, via discussion, correspondence, and a lot of thought, until finally a new, better, more plausible theory comes up that is found to fit the observed data.

The aether was postulated based on very little data at all, but became accepted as scientific fact anyway. To this day, no refinement of the original experiment, no matter how it is varied or how precise it is, has ever managed to detect a definite movement in the 'aether'. But the experiments did create a process that eventually lead to a better, more accurate theory being found. And a few more since then!

That's what we need here.

We've got the wild-eyed theory with almost nothing backing it up, that MAY fit with some of the observations. It's tenuous at best, and in some ways fairly implausible, but it fits better than other things that have been put forward.

What we need now is to start the process of finding out what IS going on, and adjusting, rewriting, or replacing the wild-eyed theory with a better one.

A collaborative process that continually improves our knowledge and understanding as a whole, in order to eventually end up at the correct result.

And as far as stephen's textures response... ummm... well I've mentioned a few times it probably at least partly had something to do with a lot of characters being in one place, which is pretty much what he's saying: that the load becomes too much if there's a lot of people close together.

This WOULD explain the bit in the one DLL that reduces the texture sizes...a bit. Maybe.

It sounds like it's probably more a problem with loading the assets into the memory in the first place than with what happens when they get there, though.

I haven't found much about the details of how the hero engine works from what I've looked at so far, and frankly I'm too tired at this point to parse it properly anyway. If it could be confirmed, however, that the 'remote renderer' stuff is part of the hero engine's system that's simply been renamed, and that the naming similarity with the copy protection method is just a coincidence... we'd have enough of it to pretty much blow the theory...though not to replace it with anything, which'd be better.
Though you're dealing with natural phenomenon, not a man made creation.

When dealing with the way programmers would program something, then it's logical to go with tried and true methods first, rather than assume it's the wild-eyed theory.

A lot of discussion has gone on in this thread and several very valid points have come forward to point out how this theory is almost entirely unlikely. So, unless Bioware themselves say they are using remote rendering as a form of DRM, I'm assuming it is not true.

MikhailTrotsky's Avatar


MikhailTrotsky
01.11.2012 , 11:27 AM | #393
This official answer doesn't really explain the insane load times and the spike in transfer rates over the internet at certain points of loading a zone.

In fact this official answer would tell me that Loading times should go faster since we are using a lower Texture resolution than possible as they optimize their system for 99% majority of computer specs.

Look I have an i7 - GTx 560ti and 16gigs of Ram and the game never makes my Cpu temp go higher than 45degree Celsius, yet I see huge loading times and lower than "High" textures rendered all the time in game.

Now officially this wont stop me for playing as I played Everquest in much of the modern MMO times (And that game's graphic engine is OLD). But it would be nice to know that I have the option to run the game in a mode that would make my Computer choke on itself.

miliways's Avatar


miliways
01.11.2012 , 11:28 AM | #394
Quote: Originally Posted by SEEEAGER View Post
Oh man,.. This is a problem, They need to fix this MMOs fail all the time over stupid stuff, something serious like this could honestly kill it, I hope something can be done.
No it isn't, and I wish OP would stay true to his word and modify the original post so people like you don't keep getting confused.

Soulaufein's Avatar


Soulaufein
01.11.2012 , 11:28 AM | #395
Quote: Originally Posted by PjPablo View Post
I'm confused. I am not a tech guy AT ALL. When I read that does that mean that the highest res textures are already in game then and are just called Medium?
It means that Bioware screwed up big time in the engine vs.performance choice. It means that people are dumb to believe its an UI bug, that some act of God created 3 options in the textures low, medium and high.

I cant believe how many people are taking Reid's avalanche of nothing as the truth. It has holes all over it.

PjPablo's Avatar


PjPablo
01.11.2012 , 11:29 AM | #396
Quote: Originally Posted by miliways View Post
High resolution textures are currently only used during cut-scenes, if your graphics quality is set to high. Otherwise, medium textures are used outside of cut-scenes.

If you select "low", you get low textures for both (or maybe low for normal, medium for cutscene? not sure, haven't tested.)

This is why they're removing the "medium" option, it is ambiguous. As of the patch, there will be only two:

Low: always low

High: always highest supported (medium normal, high cutscene)

Hopefully something like Ultra: (some High some medium normal, high cutscene) is on the way, and it sounds like they're on it. However, major changes to the rendering engine like this will take a very long time to implement, and must be vigorously tested. I would expect several months.
Thank you, sir. I don't have a top-end rig but I would imagine this is a disappointment for those that do. /shrug

I wonder why they didn't just say this was a bug prior to launch and let people know 'medium' was actually going to be highest.

miliways's Avatar


miliways
01.11.2012 , 11:29 AM | #397
Quote: Originally Posted by MikhailTrotsky View Post
This official answer doesn't really explain the insane load times and the spike in transfer rates over the internet at certain points of loading a zone.

In fact this official answer would tell me that Loading times should go faster since we are using a lower Texture resolution than possible as they optimize their system for 99% majority of computer specs.

Look I have an i7 - GTx 560ti and 16gigs of Ram and the game never makes my Cpu temp go higher than 45degree Celsius, yet I see huge loading times and lower than "High" textures rendered all the time in game.

Now officially this wont stop me for playing as I played Everquest in much of the modern MMO times (And that game's graphic engine is OLD). But it would be nice to know that I have the option to run the game in a mode that would make my Computer choke on itself.
Actually this means your computer has to either load into RAM or cache to HDD both the "medium" AND "high" textures at the same time for high settings, which does partially explain why loading, especially big planets, takes so long.

Also, this is the Hero Engine, a 3rd party engine, which is probably not as ideally optimized as possible. They're working on it.

Guys, do you realize how many patches WoW has had?

nonforma's Avatar


nonforma
01.11.2012 , 11:30 AM | #398
The High-Res official response this morning seems to confirm OP's suggestion. The repository referenced as being overwhelmed by calls could be the local server handling decryption, and so their solution were texture atlases.

MurphyNox's Avatar


MurphyNox
01.11.2012 , 11:31 AM | #399
Quote: Originally Posted by miliways View Post
Hopefully something like Ultra: (some High some medium normal, high cutscene) is on the way, and it sounds like they're on it. However, major changes to the rendering engine like this will take a very long time to implement, and must be vigorously tested. I would expect several months.
I'd rather them stick to optimizing the current graphic options before they even THINK of implementing Ultra. Don't even want to know how badly Ultra would run.

The engine you're using is beyond terrible. Among CANNOT SEE TARGET CANNOT SEE TARGET and other things.
"Quick! Abandon ship before we reach the iceberg!"

Granrick's Avatar


Granrick
01.11.2012 , 11:31 AM | #400
Quote: Originally Posted by nonforma View Post
The High-Res official response this morning seems to confirm OP's suggestion. The repository referenced as being overwhelmed by calls could be the local server handling decryption, and so their solution were texture atlases.
The official response in no way confirms his suggestion.

It's not saying the server was overwhelmed, the local PC was overwhelmed by constantly calling in new textures from the hard drive, so instead the load several textures at once in an atlas, but at lower resolution.