Why complaining about End Game is very justifiable.

This might be a valid argument, if your brother had a core spot in a top 500 US Guild

Point where I stopped reading. Does playing WoW breed ignorance or something?

Please do not compare AoC with SWTOR.

AoC was great for 20 levels, and then crap for the remaining levels and end game.

SWTOR has great leveling all the way to 50 and a reasonable amount of end game content for a new MMO. Great game with great content.

Haters gonna hate. Stop QQ and wasting space on the forum.

This is a very false assumption. The 'type of player base' is actually still mostly people that do not want to power through and be competitive in endgame. Most people actually only want to do endgame raids in WoW for two things: Get cool looking new gear, and experience the story of the raid. Even in the raiders community, only a small percentage is the type that needs to kill stuff first. Most don't even know HOW to get first kills without someone else telling them the tactic from their Beta experiences.

Even Blizzard themselves still said that despite implementing 10 man raiding and easy mode raiding (by adding hardmode as the only real raiding experience) still a very small percentage of their player base actually ever killed Arthas in Icecrown Citadel.
This is why they added LFR, to make killing Deathwing and getting the pretty gear and experiencing the story more accessable to even more of their player base.

They do this, because they want people to experience the cool content they made. Even Blizzard spits the hardcore players in the face by saying that their endgame is no longer exclusive for them as it was in vanilla and TBC.

You take a personal experience of you and your friends being 'hardcore' and put it in this game as the norm for all players. Though the statistical chance is pretty big you never even saw C'thun or Naxxramas as a level 60 (not a personal attack, just statistics), as only few people ever experienced the real raiding of WoW.

Indeed, the MMO player base has changed. They love content above challenge, even WoW has gone in this direction. And you know what? TOR has tons of great content from levels 1 to 50, with more content to come for endgame with the upcoming content patches.

D3 will not break MMOs, because what D3 has is more grinding in randomly generated dungeons that all look the same. Content wise it is far behind the diverse experience that TOR gives during levelling.

Accept the fact that, for as long as the majority of players are still levelling, SWTOR is a levellers game, not an endgame game. And in the meantime, slowly, more endgame content will be added to cater to the level 50s in the game. You know, just like WoW did, and still does at every expansion. TOR just made endgame even less important because they knew how strong their levelling experience was.

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This is actually very funny too. Top 500? You call that hardcore? I call that 499 guilds that do not work hard enough, not to mention the fact that it focuses only on US guilds, while EU and now Korean guilds are showing to be clearly superior.

Please get off your 'hardcore' high horse and just accept that being part of the Top 500 guilds in one country in one game means as much as being part of the best 10.000 Magic the Gathering players in America. You are not 'hardcore' when you are Top 10.000, you are hardcore when you as a person are part of the top 100.

Oke granted swtor has some major flaws in it that should be addressed but programming aint simply about adjusting a line of code here and there and it magically gets fixed.

However could we please drop the whole "new mmo should be perfect from the start attitude". How fair is it to compare a new game to wow since most people seem to do that.

Wow was announced in 2001 and released in 2004 so thats already 3 years of development, and its still around today with countless updates giving the game a 10 year development span. Now you are telling that new mmo's should get the same attention in the first 3 years of initial development as wow has gotten over the past 10 years .....

It simply does not work that way, there are deadlines to meet and at some stage money needs to start flowing in order to continue development. Give bioware a chance, see how they are going to deal with the game and its community in the first 3 to 6 months. Even then you cant expect them to chance/fix everything but if they start putting up big patches and start to expand the game and clean up the bugs that now hunt the game atleast you will know its being worked on.

It was in the thread...

by the time 'actual endgame' (whatever that means) will be added my character will be up high enough to enjoy it before a million people have done it and there are guides everywhere... and if that's not the case and I still get bored (if for whatever reason I manage to get my highest character to 50 within say the next two weeks...) then I just level up my alts. I'm an alt-o-holic, so there is that. do I want a 'good' endgame? absolutely, and I'm thankfull for the 'well-thought-out' critiques, but a lot of the whiny posts are just that... whiny. there may be some 'actual' complain in there somewhere, but it's hard to figure out...

End game is not complete, that is a fact at this point. I also agree with the point that you can't have an impossible to complete raid zone right at release, heck there's not even a combat log (yet? please?).

Bioware is new to MMO's and while that isn't justification for some, I'm a realist. These problems are going to be there until they get their feet wet and the game is fun enough to play in the meantime so I'll live.

Some people simply are not going to happy either way and SWTOR will lose players, it's simply what happens these days. Allot of people are just here for a break from WoW, they'll go rolling back to that abortion of a community soon enough and praising Blizzard. Speaking of communities, there are none these days. The 'old timers' from EQ1,DAOC,SWG who remember decent interaction online in their games..that time has passed. This is the Facebook/4Chan "EVERYONE MUST LISTEN TO HOW AWESOME I AM AGE", regardless of the killing of innocent bystanders braincells & IQ's.

ROFL @ OP! Again the very same story, which just don't do it. You basically say, that during those 4 or 5 years of development, BW should have done same quantity / quality of content as WoW has after 11 years of development with unlimited budget? You serious?

SW will follow usual MMO pattern anyway, it doesn't matter if end game works or not. People who did 50 in less then week will chew through any amount of endgame content in same time and become bored (just like you did). That's not problem of BW, but problem of players like you. An example to show you how that you can blame only yourself: My friend is unemployed for 2 years now and he got into SW during early access and he still doesn't have single character on level 50, but he spent like 5 days of game time on his 1st character (level 43 atm).
To clarify the absolutely worst part of your post: No, large portion of players will not plow through content as fast as you. You're part of power gaming minority, learn how to live with that fact.
You've got a point that today MMO player is different player then it used to be, before WoW, MMO players were basically only nerds and WoW opened MMO market to masses, so these nerds are now minority of MMO players.

Might be interesting to see how guys such as you will do in EvE, my best guess it's rage quit after 3 weeks.

BW knew what are they doing when they chose to make yet another WoW clone, they surely must knew it's not gonna happen (well EA managers didn't know that for sure). They are not going to be WoW killers, all they could hope for is stable player base around 500k-1M players and if they show will to fix things and will to add new things and they'll do this on regular basis, then they might achieve some nice number of subs.

I don't think I'll stay in game for as long as DDO kept me hooked, because basic systems of game are WoW copies and thus too simple for me to enjoy, no real character customization. But so far I really enjoy the story telling in the game and I want to see the end of "my saga". Otherwise the game play is just plain old dull mash'n'smash, not even close to one of best game plays ever developed ... the DDO combat system is just best out there (sad Turbine just doesn't give a crap about terrible state of their game).

You may be blinded by the fanboism quite frankly, because a lot of the time people aren't whining, they're simply voicing their opinion or posting constructive feedback.