Why complaining about End Game is very justifiable.

Sorry but I disagree.

The goal of a mmo is to bind customers to pay the subscription. This happens in end game!

You can't ignore the leveling process but that is fine in TOR! The story part makes it fun. There are issues but in my opinion they are minor (with the exception of some major bugs but that is a different topic).

But today, with WOW still strong you need to deliver end game content or people will get bored... not everyone but a majority.

You don't need to copy wow! I actually think that is a bad idea but you need to deliver entertainment!
This entertainment needs to be entertaining (doh!), rewarding, challenging and there needs to be a variety of it, some of it more and some of it less time consuming.

Right now TOR lacks in this area. There is something to do in high end. But most of it is frustrating, not very rewarding or the rewards are to random that this is getting frustrating.

Because it is new.

In WoW, its become expected that leveling is foregone conclusion and the game starts at level cap.

in SWTOR: They mean for the experience to start at lvl 1. Also since its new and not an expansion, its safe to assume that most people will not reach level cap for some time, especially if the game is still growing.

You have limited resources, limited Development time and the more you delay to "polish" the farther ahead the competition gets. The more time you give them, they can keep piling on features. I'm sure Blizz probably had people playing in Beta weekends and taking notes of features to add (PvE scenarios anyone?)

The most important thing for an MMO launch is a complete leveling experience. Endgame can be patched in because its not expected for the majority to be there anytime immediately after release.

EDIT: Also, as I have said, you need to start out small and go from there. This game brought people into the MMO market that previously wasn't there. They don't know how they work and its important to not overwhelm them at first. You want to guide them into raiding. Not put a giant bar to entry.

I actually loved leveling to 50, I did it quick because I had a lot of time off work to play, so I didn't "miss" anything. The leveling to 50 didn't feel like a grind at all and was much more enjoyable and bug free than other MMO's that I have played.

With that being said, the majority of polishing at the moment needs to be directed towards the end game as, like I said, leveling to 50 is fast, fun and bug free. What else do they need to do to make sure is working?

I wouldn't consider my post "incoherent whining" and my constructive criticism would probably be flamed more than the original post that I made since most people wouldn't find fun what I would find fun.

I merely made this post to point out that everyone who IS complaining or posting constructive criticism about the end game not being there is not only justified but should be heeded by bioware for this game to have any longevity.

And I wouldn't even call it complaining, the vast majority of it is bugs, unpolished content in the end game, stuff that SHOULD have been worked out in beta but wasn't. All of the points have been made, all that's left is to keep harping on them until action is taken, which is where I can see people look at it as complaining.

As much as I hate to keep bringing up WoW I feel I have to because that is the current standard for a successful platform for an MMO. The reason, the main reason, WoW is or at least has been successful is because it has very competitive, WAIT FOR IT................................................ ......................................END GAME.

It's nice that casual players take their time leveling up but that isn't what is going to keep people playing this game.

My whole argument is merely that with such a vast player base that wants to hit max level and get into the competitive end game stuff, it is not only important but required and essential for bioware to release a brand new MMO with polished end game content available for as soon as people hit 50.

Other games in the past can get away with the luxury of not having a polished end game, but ever since WoW has become popular and made a rise, it has set the bar for a new group of players who power through games looking to compete at whatever is in store at the end, and if what they have at the end is extremely disappointing, buggy, and was clearly not thought through or polished in the beta, then they will stop playing and when that happens, like I said in my original post, the fate of the game will become that like other failed MMO's, where they could be free to play with no support at all and nothing left but these "casual" players.

It's nice they have stuff on the ptr, but they didn't even do maintenance at their scheduled maintenance time....

Sorry, but that is completely false. With the type of player base out there these days it should be not only assumed but EXPECTED that people will push through to end game to become competitive in it.

People take pride in getting to the end and attempting to be the first to accomplish something and that all stemmed from WoW where end game raiding is very competitive.

If bioware has not seen how the MMO player base has changed, and things aren't fixed with haste in a competent manner then SWTOR will not last long, especially with games like D3 on the horizon, bioware needs to sink the hook on the player base or they'll just escape to do something else.

Somewhere someone from bioware posted that their "in-house" data points to the majority of the player base being in their 30´s, with only a small % of players having reached 50.

Those numbers clearly point that "endgame content" is not a priority at the moment, but fixing bugs and balancing issues is.

Another thing that bothers me is that people equate endgame with raiding, something that is clearly not the case for most mmo players, fixing and developing level 50 pvp is part of the "endgame", adding level 50 group flashpoints and fixing/balancing existing hardmode´s is part of the "endgame", implementing further level 50 class and planet quests is part of the "endgame".

Raiding is not only goal for a level 50 player, just one of the goals.

This was very well put. I agree completely.

The thing is that I agree with criticism regarding bugs and such. I do not believe that an MMO needs to have everything in there at launch, but I do believe that what 'is' in there should work. We currently have a lot of issues *cough* ability delay *cough*, and whereas these will most likely get fixed, I believe that these complaints are a lot more valid than the lack of proper raiding at the moment.

I am currently leveling and I'm very much enjoying it. Once this is all done, I'll start looking at the end-game, but I'm fine if Bioware fine-tunes this over the next couple of months. For those of you that rushed.... well.... you rushed, you can always unsub for a while and come back once content is released (I'm not telling you to go back to X, only that if you are not enjoying the game in the state that it is in right now, you shouldn't give away your money).

Wait... what he just said was coherent and constructive, and you still think he was whining the entire time?

I guess fanboys are blinded too heavily by their sad lack of intelligence.

Another very good reply. I want some seriously difficult flash-points (Zul-Aman bear run) where I can play with skilled friends and test my limits without having to get a full raid organized. There should be easy stuff in there as well, but also stuff for those like me who really like to wipe a lot on difficult content.

I didn't see anything in your quoted post that was directed against the OP... He was talking about the QQ posts that pollute our forums.

WOW raiding is competitive? You realize my brother plays wow, and he's 30 and was never good at any other game he's ever played.

Not everyone rushes through content to be the first level 50