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Revan .... I'm Sorry, but Really?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore > Spoilers
Revan .... I'm Sorry, but Really?

Bgiffo's Avatar


Bgiffo
01.08.2012 , 02:58 AM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfirega View Post
Your best case is my worst case.

I think, out of all possible outcomes, him dying in the Foundry is the best case scenario, because that leaves four other options:

1) Your option, where he becomes someone else's sidekick and errand boy.
2) He becomes a raid boss, and ends up spending the rest of his days as a gear slot machine.
3) He does nothing but stand around while asking you to do things as a quest giver - as a man that was always about doing things himself when possible, that's pathetic and demeaning.
4) He only gets a token mention in the annals of history and is otherwise forgotten entirely.

Let the man die, so that the new generation can continue his work in honor of his memory. He had his time, let it be someone else's.
5) Join the player(s) in a quest line/FP/Op and go out in a blaze of glory.

Just sayin, you missed one.

Foxfirega's Avatar


Foxfirega
01.08.2012 , 03:04 AM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by Bgiffo View Post
5) Join the player(s) in a quest line/FP/Op and go out in a blaze of glory.

Just sayin, you missed one.
That's still generally relegating them to point 1, because if he does all the work/takes all the spotlight, it'll make players feel like rubbish. If he doesn't, people will complain because he's just a sidekick and they're 'underplaying him'.

I'd rather him go out swinging against the Empire's best and be done with the matter. Without assistance, because he doesn't need it to hold his own. :U
'Your name is in the mouth of others - be sure it has teeth.' - Maxim 16, The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries

Linn's Avatar


Linn
01.08.2012 , 05:07 AM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfirega View Post
That's still generally relegating them to point 1, because if he does all the work/takes all the spotlight, it'll make players feel like rubbish. If he doesn't, people will complain because he's just a sidekick and they're 'underplaying him'.

I'd rather him go out swinging against the Empire's best and be done with the matter. Without assistance, because he doesn't need it to hold his own. :U

I'd certainly not feel like rubbish just because one of my all-time-favorite characters in the whole Star Wars universe stands in the spotlight at the end of a quest series. Please meditate on that again - I'm sure you'll find enough self-confidence to also not feel the way you described.

Though I agree on your comment Revan shouldn't run along like some mercenary. If you've played the Jedi Knight storyline on Voss, you'll probably know who Tala-Reh is. If you let her do as she wishes, she has quite the heroic moment, too. Before, she joined the fight against some madman. Maybe such a thing would be more fitting.

On the other hand, maybe it shouldn't be a real sacrifice at all but just some things Revan wants to be done before she finally dies (maybe after all that time and having outlived almoste anyone important to her, life isn't THAT attractive anymore). There could be some great cameo-moments there, even if it won't fit my personal Revan as she was female, so certainly Satele Shan cannot be her child. She was in love with Carth Onassi. (Has somebody found sign of him, anyway? I liked him so very much).

Whatever it's going to be - I still trust BW to make up something really good. Only thing I know for sure is - I wish for an elaborate 1 on 1 personal dialogue scene with Revan to be able to "say goodbye" - without any other player.

Foxfirega's Avatar


Foxfirega
01.08.2012 , 05:26 AM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by Linn View Post
I'd certainly not feel like rubbish just because one of my all-time-favorite characters in the whole Star Wars universe stands in the spotlight at the end of a quest series. Please meditate on that again - I'm sure you'll find enough self-confidence to also not feel the way you described.
Personal feelings on this on a one-for-one subjective basis are irrelevant. Widespread data tends to suggest that on the whole, that players in MMORPG environments (and RPG environments in general) hate feeling like they're just a sidekick and/or token fixture in someone else's story.

It was a driving complaint in World of Warcraft (Illidan and Arthas had final blows struck by other lore-centric characters and people expressed concerns of feeling cheated out of a victory they rightly earned). It showed up as a major complaint about the story content for DCUO (a lot of the story-arc missions have you playing sidekick to a lore-centric character). It even has a series of tropes named after it (the WoW examples are closer to Kill Steal, whereas the DCUO example is closer to GMPC or Deus ex Machina).

There are a lot of people, I imagine, that play TOR that aren't aware of who Revan is or why they should care. What about them? Should they have to deal with being hand-held through something by an NPC they're only told is supposed to be awesome? That's unfair. I don't doubt that Bioware can write it well, but I don't think it'll solve anything at all. There exists no way that would even please all of the people that do like Revan.

I loved the KotOR series, and I'm honestly more upset by the Exile's death then I am Revan's. But I'm willing to accept both, because this isn't their time anymore. They had their time - letting them continue to hog the spotlight to give people that can't and likely won't accept his death in any way, shape, or form some kind of false closure that they'll ignore anyway is bad storytelling.

Quote:
On the other hand, maybe it shouldn't be a real sacrifice at all but just some things Revan wants to be done before she finally dies (maybe after all that time and having outlived almoste anyone important to her, life isn't THAT attractive anymore). There could be some great cameo-moments there, even if it won't fit my personal Revan as she was female, so certainly Satele Shan cannot be her child. She was in love with Carth Onassi. (Has somebody found sign of him, anyway? I liked him so very much).

Whatever it's going to be - I still trust BW to make up something really good. Only thing I know for sure is - I wish for a 1 on 1 dialogue scene with Revan to be able to "say goodbye".
I still think the Foundry is a fine sendoff for Revan, as the alternatives don't feel any better to me (personally). I loved the character, but for someone that's set up as a tragic hero constantly throughout everything they've been in, I think a tragic end and one that has a lot of emotional impact (if it didn't, why are we talking about this in multiple forums in multiple threads? Clearly some people are passionate about it) like was already done works. It sets a very bitter tone and may still have fallout. There's just as much story potential in him dying in the Foundry as there is in him living, and possibly more depending on where they want to take it.

He's going to die sometime - there's worse ways to go out then this. Ask Chewbacca and Grievous how they feel about how they got treated.
'Your name is in the mouth of others - be sure it has teeth.' - Maxim 16, The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries

Crystarium's Avatar


Crystarium
01.08.2012 , 05:27 AM | #55
I think the Lore lovers + the PvP lovers should have their forums combined, so we all know which to avoid.

Linn's Avatar


Linn
01.08.2012 , 05:39 AM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfirega View Post
Personal feelings on this on a one-for-one subjective basis are irrelevant. Widespread data tends to suggest that on the whole, that players in MMORPG environments (and RPG environments in general) hate feeling like they're just a sidekick and/or token fixture in someone else's story.

It was a driving complaint in World of Warcraft (Illidan and Arthas had final blows struck by other lore-centric characters and people expressed concerns of feeling cheated out of a victory they rightly earned). It showed up as a major complaint about the story content for DCUO (a lot of the story-arc missions have you playing sidekick to a lore-centric character). It even has a series of tropes named after it (the WoW examples are closer to Kill Steal, whereas the DCUO example is closer to GMPC or Deus ex Machina).

There are a lot of people, I imagine, that play TOR that aren't aware of who Revan is or why they should care. What about them? Should they have to deal with being hand-held through something by an NPC they're only told is supposed to be awesome? That's unfair. I don't doubt that Bioware can write it well, but I don't think it'll solve anything at all. There exists no way that would even please all of the people that do like Revan.
You make a point there - I admit. I can only say, that there also lots of players who don't approve of being hailed to all the time (which is the backside of the "you're-the-all-time-number-one-thing"). Those people feel, success comes to easy, too often and is too exaggerated over minor things. Moreover, there is a difference between letting one guy stand in the spotlight during -one- cutscene after -one- quest-series and the final blow in some epic raid that you've beein working on for months. Just saying..the fight against lich-king where you die, get revived and then finish him off was quite the epic thing, too, even after having killed him more than a dozen times - though, players weren't alone in the spotlight. I think you get my meaning: there -are- ways to do this in a good way.
Should people still feeling like rubbish have to handle that? They sure should because it would show a huge lack of personal development if they didn't. I admit, they should rather go find a good therapist than loading that responsibility on BW, though.


Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfirega View Post
I loved the KotOR series, and I'm honestly more upset by the Exile's death then I am Revan's. But I'm willing to accept both, because this isn't their time anymore. They had their time - letting them continue to hog the spotlight to give people that can't and likely won't accept his death in any way, shape, or form some kind of false closure that they'll ignore anyway is bad storytelling.

I still think the Foundry is a fine sendoff for Revan, as the alternatives don't feel any better to me (personally). I loved the character, but for someone that's set up as a tragic hero constantly throughout everything they've been in, I think a tragic end and one that has a lot of emotional impact (if it didn't, why are we talking about this in multiple forums in multiple threads? Clearly some people are passionate about it) like was already done works. It sets a very bitter tone and may still have fallout. There's just as much story potential in him dying in the Foundry as there is in him living, and possibly more depending on where they want to take it.

He's going to die sometime - there's worse ways to go out then this. Ask Chewbacca and Grievous how they feel about how they got treated.
It's fine by me that you are content with the foundry. Really. As you can see there are many players feeling differently and I don't think those concerns can be discussed away.

EDIT: Oh, and Revan dying in a dusty-rusty foundry is just pathetic from my personl point of view. They could also have make Revan breed kittens there to throw them at the players that would've aroused the same feelings in me.

Natherillen's Avatar


Natherillen
01.08.2012 , 05:45 AM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by Lightstrake View Post
As many players of the Empire know, there's a flashpoint where you enter a Foundry area [I'm mainly Republic so I don't know the name] and it was owned by Revan. I knew Revan had to be alive during the game even before I found out about the flashpoint. I had reasoning with Revan being so strong in the Force, he can survive 300 years as Yoda did for 800-900 years.

Yoda's species has a lifespan around hundreds of years, it's not Yoda himself. Revan has been in stasis for a long time, it's the reason of why he survived that long. As I said in a different post, he might have been a great hero of his time but he has been weakened and maddened during the time he endured the Emperor's assault to his mind.

You can't beat a Sith in the game of deception truth to be told. Everything might not be as they seem to be.
You ask “What is life?” That is the same as asking “What is a carrot?” A carrot is a carrot and we know nothing more.
Anton Chekhov

urborror's Avatar


urborror
01.08.2012 , 08:55 AM | #58
I was appalled--a travesty. I guess maybe "he's alive," and in some sense this was Revan not "going out like a punk," (since otherwise he was presumably killed by the emperor,) but it's nonetheless awful and poorly thought-out. Hearing HK talk about getting ready to exterminate the Sith certainly suggested a better game arc than I was playing. "Hey, character I like! Let's assemble a team--errhhh--this isn't KOTOR 3." Sure, Revan is weak after stasis! He needs to "level up"! HK-47 rescues you 300 years later! Imagine that cutscene!

Instead I'm killing this epic Joseph Campbell hero--I'm basically killing Han Solo and Luke. Uh, "awesome," and unexpected.

I've killed plenty of Jedi as my Sith, but my unwillingness to kill Revan just drove home how unseriously I was taking the story. I'm not saying Bioware didn't put tons of work in this game, or it's not uniquely fun in an MMO way, but story is spread so thin across the 8 classes and vast playtime, there's no way any class story remotely compares to KOTOR 1 or 2. And those stories were 30 hours apiece. "Content" is mostly questgivers, and literally 65% of the time I have no idea what quest is which or why I'm doing it, even with the dialogues and story contextualizing.

I was a little more upset just fighting HK-47. This is the best "Star Wars" character in recent memory and he's reduced to a boss, as opposed to *having something substantial to do in the game.* That's more an opportunity-lost thing, independent of "lore."

Statement: HK-47 (or 51) could have replaced the Imperial Agent as "Assassin Droid" class--we learn there are a number of elite HK-47 clones that the Emperor commissioned. That's a class everybody would want to play, whatever customization options it offered.

So whatever--Revan doesn't "go out like a punk," he's defeated, held in stasis, then quadruple-teamed by four of the empire's best (which could have happened 300 years previous but didn't)--okay. I guess I accept it, but "Mass Effect 2" is the spiritual successor to KOTOR, not TOR.

Linn's Avatar


Linn
01.08.2012 , 09:10 AM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by urborror View Post
"Mass Effect 2" is the spiritual successor to KOTOR, not TOR.

Ashliet's Avatar


Ashliet
01.08.2012 , 11:24 AM | #60
They better bring Revan back because Revan's final line angered me. First off Hk was stronger than Revan dissapointing.
Second he utters the same line Malaks does about the darkness taking ahold of him and him being nothing.
***? That happened to Malak because Malak was evil if (Keep in mind they originally intended this to be the final end of Revan) leaving Revan like that is a insult to the character.

What happened to there is no Death there is the Force? You had Revan die like he was going to dissapear into nothing yet during the entire battle he screams I AM JEDI.

Also Bioware Revert Revan's appearance BACK to how it was in BETA.
In Beta you had his hood up while wearing the mask and that looked awesome. His hood down with the mask just looks stupid. Why would you change it to make it look worse. Plus without the mask and his hood down he also looks stupid.
You seriously destroyed your most Iconic character in every possible way.
CE - Not worth it.

"I would stand by your side gladly, as your lover and apprentice. I would be utterly yours, master. - Bastila to Revan