The Expertise stat has to go...

Bleh. I do not need a crutch to help me own in PVP.


"I DIDN'T READ THE THREAD BUT I'M VERY VERY VOCAL!!!!11!!!"

There's a reason these PvP stats exist. I don't like them, but I also don't like the alternative. I believe the problem with expertise is not that it exists, but rather the extent to which it affects a character's performance.

In games with a PvP progression system, rewards and gear, there will inevitably be a large population of players that eschews the PvE content in favor of almost exclusively PvP play. There will also be players who never engage in PvP - they don't matter for this particular discussion. There is a much larger group of players, however, that will do a lot of PvE content in preparation for PvP, or use PvP as a fun escape from their standard PvE gameplay. Typically, these people will have relatively good high level items and sets from PvE raiding and rewards.

What happens without PvP gear is what happened in WoW before they added all of the good PvP rewards and stats. Mainly, the PvE gear becomes significantly better than the PvP gear. This is a byproduct of the nature of the content. PvE must be constantly expanded and gear must be constantly improved and updated by the developers. If they don't do this, people will quickly tire of running the same zones. PvP doesn't have quite as prominent an issue here. Since PvP is more strategic, more exciting and more dynamic, there do not have to be constantly improving scenarios and rewards for people to stick with it. Many will just continue because it's fun.

So while the developers are busy expanding the main game content (read: PvE content), the gear is quickly outpacing what the PvP'ers have available to them, if it isn't already better. The PvE focused players decide they want a break, or want to become involved in the PvP landscape, and boom; suddenly your warzones are full of players who are Valor level 0, have never PvP'ed before, yet are supremely stat-superior to you and your friends who have been focusing on this aspect of the game since level 10. Maybe you still win because you're organized, skilled, and have more experience, but two problems arise. First, PvP isn't that hard. They'll figure it out quickly enough if they don't already understand how to succeed. Second, it may be at the point where the gear imbalance between PvP and PvE is so large that skill makes little difference and they simply win the stat battle.

This fosters an environment in which people who chose to concentrate on and excel in one facet of the game (PvP), suffer a disadvantage to those who chose to concentrate on the other part of the game (PvE). This does not go backwards. A PvP focused player isn't going to walk into a raid group and faceroll the bosses while his groupmates watch in awe. He will be at the same (or a lower) level than the rest of them, and may not even be welcome to some groups due to the nature and quality of his gear.

What choices are available for balancing this? You can constantly add new PvP gear and content. This is costly and time consuming, and probably not feasible as the majority of content enhancement and manpower in MMO's is going to go towards the "main" game, I.E. PvE. Like it or not, unless the game was advertised as being PvP based (SWTOR was really not), the PvP team is going to be smaller, slower and less pressured to add and improve. PvE content will always be the primary focus.

If the PvP teams don't keep up with the pace of PvE gear scaling, the problem snowballs and PvE players end up rolling over everyone else in PvP simply due to their stats. Some kind of stopgap measure has to exist to make PvP heavy and PvP exclusive players - as they are not an insignificant portion of the population - feel like their work is worth something. PvP specific stats do this. The problem I see with SWTOR, however, is the extent to which this stat affects the outcomes of PvP battles. I believe this will be alleviated as players improve their PvE gear. If you have a 10% expertise bonus, but your opponent has 10% more of their primary stat, and 10% more HP than you because their PvE gear is stat-superior, then you have some semblance of balance. The PvE'ers have a fighting chance, and the PvP'ers don't feel outmatched in their "area of expertise". The problem in this particular game exists because the PvP bonuses are so high that they make all non-PvP gear seem relatively useless in PvP situations.

Some tweaks to the significance of expertise gear, as well as taking a look at the comparison between PvP and top PvE gear attributes should make this a manageable system. Personally, I think it's good for PvP exclusive players to have a slight advantage over those who never or rarely participate, but it's not good for them to be significantly more powerful. It encourages complaints about the game, as well as discourages many of those who may join PvP from participating more often.

I am not the best pvper, but I just hope that the ranking system that is going to be introduced also works like a matchmaking system where people are grouped with people of equal pvp ability. Let those that are good play against those that good, let those that are bad play against those that are bad. That way, all games will be close. If it is the gear that gives people the edge or if its skill, all the games will be closer and not the 6-0 blow outs that premades (my included) enjoy. On a side note, I still that think that any PVP specific stat is an old and boring concept, but it is likely here to stay.

This. I would argue that all recent MMOs have been designed primarily around PvE gameplay. PvP is an interest, but not the focus. And PvE is based around gear progression, with the result that PvP has to be as well.

I realize all MMOs are competing with each other, so they will all do the gear grind, but my point is that gear is a PvE man's game. I'd rather go toe-to-toe with no gear and see some strategy. However, I have no solution for this.

I will now return to the comfort of my apathy.

No just saying that some people will take the path of least resistance if they can get away with it, no matter if it is a raid or a warzone.

10% damage done, 10% healing received, and 10% damage takend reduced by themselves is not too out of whack. The fact that Expertise does ALL of those, means a player that is receiving heals w/Expertise vs. a player that is receiving heals w/o Expertise is now 30% better.

Pretty much this i hard 2 chars priest and mage and my mage was made like half year earlier than my priest and what happened was that later days my priest was way better geared in pvp.

Only problem with this games gearing is its stupid rng factor on pvp gear without rng i would pretty much have finished my champion gear 2 times already on my shadow. You can pretty much if ur lucky acquire the pvp gear in the first week you start pvp:ing.

Is expertise as stat stupid ? meaby later it might be but as of now it just seems too many ppl are crying because they are either too lazy to pvp enough for basic gear or need to find a reason to whine about why they are loosing.

Also it some sort of reward when you pvp more than lets say a guy who does like 1 pvp a day.

Untill there is a viable and sane substitute, Experitse is the only way to go.

The stat is fine if you don't care about competitive PvP. For competitive PvP, the expertise stat and other gear grinds are about the worst system imaginable. They are installed to keep a greater population of gamers interested because you can actually perform better in PvP just by investing more time in the game (and getting more goodies). (The gear also provides reasons and excuses for players who are not performing well in PvP to continue playing -- it's the gear's fault.) PvE gear is just as much of a problem in this regard, even if you eliminate the expertise stat -- grinding out instances for gear to perform better in game.

Personally, I never expected this game to have anything remotely close to a competitive PvP system. Waiting for other games to provide that. If you're playing this game for that reason, then you should do a gut check, immediately (and well before you spend hours of your life grinding to a meaningless valor ranking). Given that, I'm agnostic as to the expertise stat and the other gear grinds in this game.

Wow that's a damn fine logical, backed up with some interesting facts and sources presented in a nice alternative use of "I fixed that for you" that no one on the internet ever used before, post.

Less people playing in PVP == less PVP for everyone, that's all these PVP grind crutch systems provide, THAT has been proven over and over by other MMOs.