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A couple points missed by the Pro-addon crowd


JuliusMidnight's Avatar


JuliusMidnight
01.04.2012 , 10:49 AM | #1
FIRST: This is not advocating that TOR continue to deny addons. This comes from seeing the MANY posts for addons and getting frustrated at the posters for how they ask for something.

#1: Keep in mind that the majority of players will never use addons. Even in WoW, more players just log on and play without a single addon than those that use them.

#2: To the "Then don't use them crowd": There are two things wrong with this argument, though it sounds good in theory. First, is that if addons are added, they will become required for raiding. This is because they're useful and end up helping. No problem there in my mind, just remember this when saying that not everyone has to use them. Second, most folks cite a few core addon needs but forget that if BW allows 3rd party addons, then all shapes and sizes of addons will come in. Many of which I'd bet BW is currently unprepared to deal with. People WILL try to exploit/bot/etc with addons if enabled. They exploit without them too, but its just something that will happen in MMO's. That crowd is very few people compared to the player base but I bring this up because this is something BW will be concerned with.

#3: "A lack of addons will help the bad players stay bad." Some addons can help so much in improving game play (I miss power auras) but my main issue with this argument returns to #1 in a way. Most the rather bad people are going to stay bad and never try to improve and along the same lines, most people concerned with improving will find ways to test it without addons if they have to. The addons are probably the most accurate way to cover this but it will not do anything for those that already don't care about getting told they're fail.


My request here? Look into your argument more when you make it. I use addons in WoW, I would use them if they come to TOR, but be a little more open than just screaming for them and screaming at anyone against you. Maybe there is a compromise that players can make with BW? Maybe we can get them to implement the core things we want into their UI, and continue to improve upon that as time goes on. Of course, this is all a pipe dream as many forum goers are lucky to complete a sentence correctly, but I will continue to dream because this fantasy land of people using their brains to achieve something is a very shiny place.

Helagoth's Avatar


Helagoth
01.04.2012 , 11:04 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by JuliusMidnight View Post
Second, most folks cite a few core addon needs but forget that if BW allows 3rd party addons, then all shapes and sizes of addons will come in. Many of which I'd bet BW is currently unprepared to deal with.
This is simply not true. People can't make addon's that aren't supported by the game's API. If BW doesn't want a DBM type addon, they simply don't make that info available to the addons. if they want a damage meter style addon, then they CAN make a combat log available.

Right now, we have no addon's because we have no information. Information is the faucet that controls what addon's can do.


The biggest problem with implementing addon's is that it wasn't planned for from the beginning. Re-inventing the client to support addon's will be a monumental undertaking. My guess is we'll be lucky to get just a combat log in the next 3 months.
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Masoa's Avatar


Masoa
01.04.2012 , 11:27 AM | #3
History has shown that game mods have extended a game's life well beyond the expiration date. Prove me wrong.

JuliusMidnight's Avatar


JuliusMidnight
01.04.2012 , 11:38 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Helagoth View Post
This is simply not true. People can't make addon's that aren't supported by the game's API. If BW doesn't want a DBM type addon, they simply don't make that info available to the addons. if they want a damage meter style addon, then they CAN make a combat log available.

Right now, we have no addon's because we have no information. Information is the faucet that controls what addon's can do.


The biggest problem with implementing addon's is that it wasn't planned for from the beginning. Re-inventing the client to support addon's will be a monumental undertaking. My guess is we'll be lucky to get just a combat log in the next 3 months.
It's true that BW will be able to try to limit what is available to the addon devs, but if you've watched the history of WoW addons, there are still always addons that provide more than was intended and a change had to be made to break the addon. These are few compared to the total, but I just think BW is not ready to deal with these types of issues yet and they have to be included when considering allowing addons.

Quote:
History has shown that game mods have extended a game's life well beyond the expiration date. Prove me wrong.
Huh? Read my post, then reply. I never countered against addons, even said I would use them. I advocated informed arguments. Next.

Gurnz's Avatar


Gurnz
01.04.2012 , 11:45 AM | #5
The burdon of proof does not rest in our hands. You make a statement, it is you who must provide the info to support and prove its accuracy. Do not commit the logical fallacy of creating statements while stating to "prove me wrong." It's absolutely illogical and you should conduct yourself in a more respectable manner.

Bootmgsh's Avatar


Bootmgsh
01.04.2012 , 12:00 PM | #6
The thing about addons is that they usual indicate were the current game is limited.

Lets face it there are always going to be bits overlooked, or the developers just don't have the time for, as the game is simply vast.

Addons allow for people to patch things up, and can give the developer hints of what is needed.

Case in point, Cata introduced visual cues when abilities proced. Something that had been previous made available for power aura.
Agro meters were also added after omen was available.

So addons can aid the development process, though I'll admit they also give a huge headache.

I have learnt to live without mouse over heals, but the Raid frames/party frames still cause an issue with me.
Part of the problem is that in a party my icon/health bar is not lined up next to the rest of the group. This may not seem like much, but it is a cause of death for healers. In healer mode my eyes are usually fixed on the party health and often miss my own. So now my eyes are split between my health and the parties, and I may miss that nasty fire I'm standing in. You can use ops frames that bundle you with the rest of the party, but the debuff icons are so small that you can't see vital debuffs that have to be removed.
Ok you could put this down as L2P, and I can still do the healing gig, but it does leave me a bit frazzled at the end of a fight and it should be the boss that makes me frazzled not squinting at the interface.

Now a few UI options could fix this, but these are niche concerns and there is no doubt a lot of work to be done patching the whole game and expanding content. Allowing addons allow for individuals to take on these niche problems far quicker that if left for the developer.

Enginer's Avatar


Enginer
01.04.2012 , 12:05 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by JuliusMidnight View Post

#1: Keep in mind that the majority of players will never use addons. Even in WoW, more players just log on and play without a single addon than those that use them.
Source?
Why people are quitting TOR at endgame:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwHIWClqr_o

Starting to think EALouse was spot on

Zeppelin's Avatar


Zeppelin
01.04.2012 , 12:12 PM | #8
#2... The reason why add-ons seem required is because the default UI is so terrible. This should be a reason for add-ons, not against them.


In reality, add-ons enhance the game for people who want them, and do nothing for people who don't want them. They expose bad UI design, plain and simple. Until the day that a developer can make the perfect UI that suits the tastes of millions of different users, being able to mod your UI is absolutely necessary.
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JuliusMidnight's Avatar


JuliusMidnight
01.04.2012 , 12:14 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Zeppelin View Post
#2... yeah they may be required for higher end raiding... but they aren't required to play the game. Not everyone needs or should be doing higher end raiding. If you're a casual player that's intimidated by all those pesky add-ons, then you probably shouldn't be doing high end raiding anyway.
This is very true, but the argument that "You don't have to use them" is wrong. If added, they are required. This is not a bad thing, as I'd love enrage timers for the heroic bosses and some things like that, but we can't say that using addons is completely optional if added when parts of the game will require them.

Zeppelin's Avatar


Zeppelin
01.04.2012 , 12:15 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by JuliusMidnight View Post
This is very true, but the argument that "You don't have to use them" is wrong. If added, they are required. This is not a bad thing, as I'd love enrage timers for the heroic bosses and some things like that, but we can't say that using addons is completely optional if added when parts of the game will require them.
heh.. sorry edited my post and took that out. Didn't want to seem elitist
Size matters not!

The first rule about Jar Jar is we don't talk about Jar Jar.