Grouped with a power tech today...disheartening

So I'm suppose to believe you that at lvl 50 all is well for the Jugg? Based on your own post. Okey...

And please post your PVP ordeal... at lvl 22 BH:M I have not seen one lvl below 20, most of the Pvp'rs where around mid 30's and 40's. The high lvl Republics where always after the lowbies. Pvp is a different environment if I may state that fact.

No.

See, this is how a debate/discussion works.

You are making what is called "A positive assertion", in this case it is the statement that "The Juggernaut is broken". In a court of law, you would be the Prosecution.

I am making a "negative assertion", I am saying "No, you are wrong.". In a court of law, I would be the defence.

Now, who goes first? The positive assertion goes first, or the prosecution in a law case. Why is this? Because the positive assertion has to make their case and present their evidence so that the negative assertion can try to discredit that evidence.

I don't have to prove the Juggernaut is fine, I only have to dismantle your claims that the Juggernaut is broken. Savy?

So what happens when the positive assertion/prosecution fails to provide sufficient evidence?

In a court, the judge would deem the defence the winner by default.

So, in a debate, as you are the positive assertion, your failure to provide evidence for your side means that I, the negative assertion, win by default.

Debate 101.

SO

Provide evidence and proof of an objective nature or else you lose by default.

Lol that lvl 50 took the offer of power leveling and just got his account, was in the process of setting up his Key bindings while in PVP.

First off, your rebuttal went past the subjected discussion. What you have done is provide assumption. You stated that no two players are alike, true enough but you focused on the players abilities to play the game. However, for the OP his focus was the game. The ability of the Jugg class, how it is suppose to be polished.

This is not a court room, nor is there anyone in trial. We are merely stating that there is room for improvements for this class. Keep showing your superior intellect. I am surely impressed.

You're right, it's not a court room.

But if a debate is not going to follow proper debate guidelines, there's no purpose to having the debate.

Every debate, friendly or official, should follow the rules of debate to ensure the debate is reasonable and logical and can conclude.

If you're unwilling to provide evidence of your position, I have nothing to attack.

At that point, it becomes two people bickering, not a debate.

The framework of a debate is meant to ensure the debate can conclude and not turn into a giant circular argument.

If you just want to argue in circles, go nuts, I'm out.

If you want to discuss the problem within the proper framework of debate, then I will.

You know you don't really have any proof that you're a good tank either. If we took everyone at their words then we would be stupid.


Frankly I'm a 30ish Jug and all i ever feel when grouped with other classes is that my class is inferior.

And you're saying it takes someone with 5 years to be good at Jug tanking, then in my mind the class is broken. You shouldn't have to be a macro using quick fingered god to be at least passable at a class but the Jug suffers from a serious lack of threat management and ability bloat.

And the "Taunt" you get is completely worthless.

When i Taunt a mob, he comes back to me for about 2 seconds the immediately runs back to the BH. Does it even generate threat or is it just a CC ability for about 3 seconds?

Yep, simpletons recognize this thread as an Opinion. That is were we based our rebuttal, provide an opinion outside the realm of a debate.

This is exactly the same experience at low lvl. You don't even need to be lvl 30 to realize something is wrong. All you need is some idea of what a Tank should be to know that there is something wrong. I am not going to mention my past MMO experience because it is irrelevant to this topic. We are talking about SWTOR: Sith Warrior Jugg class.

Your concerns regarding this class is warranted Odd. Good job!

Opinions are worthless when discussing balance.

Correction, opinions are generally worthless in all things.

Facts, logic and reason. The foundation of human civilization and science.

ALL discussions should boil down to this. Any discussion that falls outside of these things is effectively breathing with noise added.

What would the point of us discussing opinions be? You have yours, I have mine, and we waltz in circles going "you're wrong!" with no end in sight.

It's just arguing for the sake of the arguing, it's worthless.

I got 3 levels to go till I hit 50 on my Juggernaut, how about your find me a Powertech who's 50 on Lord Adraas ( my server) and we can do, gasp, AN EXPERIMENT.

You know, experiments, HOW STUFF IS PROVED.

Instead of rifling off worthless opinions, you COULD try to work with me or someone else to create an accurate experiment to prove your point. If an experiment proved me wrong, I'd be all for admitting I'm wrong.

BUT, instead of trying to prove your point through accurate experimentation, you'd rather just keep typing and typing and typing about what you 'See' and what you 'feel' and what you 'think'.

You could easily put the time and effort into proving your point. But will you? Probably not.

The fact that Assassins can tank in LIGHT ARMOR is very distrubing to me. Sure, Their tank stance gives them +Armor %, but our Soresu form does that for us too, and we're wearing HEAVY ARMOR. I joined an Op in Tatooine for Trapjaw, and an Assassin was the tank. I would think the Juggs would have more Tanking ability than an Assassin would ever have, while the Assassins would overtake us in DPS