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Tanking: A Primer


ThaGoods's Avatar


ThaGoods
01.01.2012 , 10:27 AM | #41
The "flow" of how this system works results in a crit never being shielded and a vice versa.


Apparently every hit has a chance to to be blocked/shielded then absorbed including criticals according to game data. Some hits that aren't the average differ.

For instance I rarely get crit for the same damage normal attacks on elites are 300~400, when I am crit hit its around ~1.5 but sometimes it becomes 1100, 1800, can you explain how those aren't being shielded?

Chasted's Avatar


Chasted
01.02.2012 , 08:45 AM | #42
I'm more interested in the way hits are made; it might be nit-picking but two rolls feels like one too many and you could save processor time by just making it one roll.

The "Hit" system could just be a simple breakdown of the four possible outcomes. (Crit, shield, hit and miss)
Someone's chance of hitting is derived as such:
1 - ACCURACY + DEFENSE CHANCE

So, using the numbers below as an example:

Attacker Accuracy: 90%
Attacker Critical Hit: 5%
Defender "Defense Chance": 5%
Defender Shield Chance: 20%

Outcome 1: Miss (1 - .9 + .05 = 15%)
Outcome 2: Shield (20%)
Outcome 3: Critical Hit (5%)
Outcome 4: Hit (The rest AKA 60%)

Quote: Originally Posted by ThaGoods View Post
For instance I rarely get crit for the same damage normal attacks on elites are 300~400, when I am crit hit its around ~1.5 but sometimes it becomes 1100, 1800, can you explain how those aren't being shielded?
If it's a different monster:
It hits softer

if it's the same monster:
It has a wide range of possible damage to deal. If your shield procs there should be a slight blue circular shimmer around your character (At least, to what I've noticed on my trooper).

However, that isn't to say it's not impossible that a crit can be shielded; the lack of combat logs makes it impossible to know.

reillan's Avatar


reillan
01.02.2012 , 08:53 AM | #43
Great guide, but need some info at the even-more-noobly level. Things such as:

1: Always turn the mob away from the group. Some classes may get damage bonuses to fighting at a boss's back, and bosses often have frontal attacks. It's your job as tank to position the boss as needed, not for your groupmates to move behind whereever you're tanking the boss.
1a: Away means "from where the group is fighting", not simply "180 from where you start". This is important on boss fights where players have to stack in a very specific location.
1b: On bosses that can't be turned or moved, make sure the other players know where they'll need to stand.
1c: Unless it's essential to the mechanics of a boss fight, do not move once you're in position. Moving means your entire group produces less dps, heals for less, and lowers your level of control over the situation (meaning that people may end up taking damage when they weren't before). One possible mechanic that might require you to move is if the boss randomly moves throughout the fight. You might have to move to reacquire aggro. Or, if the boss places healing or damage puddles on the ground, you might have to move to get into or keep out of these
Band of Hope & A Light in the Dark - Christian-based Shien guilds.

Gankstah's Avatar


Gankstah
01.02.2012 , 09:20 AM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by ThaGoods View Post
Apparently every hit has a chance to to be blocked/shielded then absorbed including criticals according to game data.
I would very much like to see this "data".

Quote: Originally Posted by ThaGoods View Post
...I rarely get crit for the same damage normal attacks on elites are 300~400, when I am crit hit its around ~1.5 but sometimes it becomes 1100, 1800, can you explain how those aren't being shielded?
Let's pretend for a moment that the base value of our given attack is 200-400 dmg. Crits in TOR are based on a 1.5 modifier (which can be increased via Surge). That gives us a window of 300-600 dmg on a crit. It will be extremely rare for you to see the "same damage" from any string of crits. Anecdotal observation shouldn't be taken as imperial fact. I'm not saying that's what you're doing. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be done.

Quote: Originally Posted by Chasted View Post
However, that isn't to say it's not impossible that a crit can be shielded; the lack of combat logs makes it impossible to know.
It is impossible for a crit to be shielded.

The following is a quote from Georg Zoeller. I have highlighted the important parts for the reader.

Quote: Originally Posted by Georg Zoeller
Combat Results:

We use a two-roll system for determining combat results.

First is a hit roll, accuracy versus defense, and if the attacker misses then no damage occurs. If the attacker rolled poorly enough to miss even discounting the target's defense then a "Miss" result occurs. If he misses because of the defense then the result varies based on the attack type, the cover state of the target, and the target's equipped weapons. All the possible results - Dodge, Parry, Deflect, Resist, Cover - are mathematically the same, but they can trigger different effects and are visualized in different ways.

If the attacker hits, then a second roll is made with the crit chance of the attacker versus the shield chance of the target. If a Crit or a Shield occurs then the damage is adjusted up or down (based on Surge/Absorb), and then it goes through to the armor and damage resistance. A critical can never be shielded, and an attacker with a high enough crit chance can push the target's shield chance off the table. It shouldn't be possible to get your passive crit chance high enough to start pushing off the target's shield chance, but there are short-duration buffs that push these chances high enough to come into conflict.

On Diminishing Returns:

All of the percentage-based "ratings" on gear have diminishing returns. The design intent is that all tanks will want a mix of Shield, Absorb and Defense ratings, with the "perfect" ratios varied by spec and play style.
For those of you who are unaware of who Georg is, he is the Lead Combat Designer for SWTOR. He's the one responsible for combat design, balance and implementation. Unless Georg and his team completely redesigned the combat system for TOR between the close of the Beta forums and launch... the previous statement is still true. Feel free to contact Georg directly if you want confirmation of the above statement.

Chasted's Avatar


Chasted
01.02.2012 , 05:36 PM | #45
Ah, I thought it was speculation more than quoted fact. My bad.

ThaGoods's Avatar


ThaGoods
01.02.2012 , 06:31 PM | #46
Ganksteh




Thank you for responding to my post. The "data" I spoke of was me fighting the same mobs over and over with no gear looking for influx's in the hits. However, based on your findings (the dev post) my theory is moot. I appreciate you answering my question and good job bro.

Antiochia's Avatar


Antiochia
01.03.2012 , 05:39 AM | #47
Hello Gankstah, i would like to thank your for your great work.

I wanted to ask if you would allow me to translate your guide into German to put it in the tank forum. (Of course with you as creator of the database.) Every english reading tank there is exited about your gathered informations, for the non english reading ones its a bit complicated, because they have to gather parts of the informations from the different threads. (One Thread about Aggro, the other one about preferences for stats, ... and the answers are anyway based on the informations of your thread.) Next server maintenance is coming and i need something to do.

Thanks again for the nice work and have a fun in the Game, Antiochia

Joff's Avatar


Joff
01.03.2012 , 04:32 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by Gankstah;831
[CODE
Modified Armor Value (MAV)
SI: (BAV Light 1909)*(Stance 2.5) or 1909*2.5 = 4772.5*(Eye of the Storm 20%) or 1.2*4772.5 = 5727

SW: (BAV Heavy 3601)*(Stance 1.6) or 3601*1.6 = 5761.6

BH: (BAV Heavy 3601)*(Stance 1.6) or 3601*1.6 = 5761.6*(Rebraced Armor +16%) or 5761.6*1.16 = 6683.5
Note: Armor bonuses are multiplicative exceptions to TOR's mountains of additive calcs. Now, we plug our MAV into our DR calculation (found in the Game Calculations section) to come up with our Base Armor DR (BADR):
Base Armor DR (BADR): SI = 34.65% | SW = 34.78% | BH = 38.22%
I've checked this with my Powertech and my results indicate two things. Firstly that Ion Gas Cylinder is actually giving a armour bonus of 61.5% and secondly that it is additive with Rebraced Armor and not multiplicative.

I noticed this when I was levelling up and wanted to work out how much extra mitigation Rebraced Armor would give me so I ran some calculations however when I got it the calculations were incorrect. I have since cleared my talent tree to discover why this was the case.

Base armor value 1126 - No RA or IGC active.
With IGC active armor value rises to 1818 (1126*1.615)
With RA(1) and no IGC active armor value rises to 1216 (1126*1.08)
With RA(1) and IGC active armor value rises to 1909 (1126+(1126*0.08)+(1126*0.615))
With RA(2) and no IGC active armor value rises to 1306 (1126*1.16)
With RA(2) and IGC active armor value rises to 1999 (1126+(1126*0.16)+(1126*0.615))

Screenshots as evidence here.

Perhaps someone can check Juggernaut and Assassin as well?
The Galactic Legacy on The Red Eclipse server

Gankstah's Avatar


Gankstah
01.03.2012 , 08:30 PM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by Antiochia View Post
Hello Gankstah, i would like to thank your for your great work.

I wanted to ask if you would allow me to translate your guide into German to put it in the tank forum. (Of course with you as creator of the database.) Every english reading tank there is exited about your gathered informations, for the non english reading ones its a bit complicated, because they have to gather parts of the informations from the different threads. (One Thread about Aggro, the other one about preferences for stats, ... and the answers are anyway based on the informations of your thread.) Next server maintenance is coming and i need something to do.

Thanks again for the nice work and have a fun in the Game, Antiochia
Yes, of course.

As stated in the Author's Note, any and all information contained in this thread is communal property. Use it as you wish. No citation is needed or expected.

Quote: Originally Posted by Joff View Post
I've checked this with my Powertech and my results indicate two things. Firstly that Ion Gas Cylinder is actually giving a armour bonus of 61.5% and secondly that it is additive with Rebraced Armor and not multiplicative.

I noticed this when I was levelling up and wanted to work out how much extra mitigation Rebraced Armor would give me so I ran some calculations however when I got it the calculations were incorrect. I have since cleared my talent tree to discover why this was the case.

Base armor value 1126 - No RA or IGC active.
With IGC active armor value rises to 1818 (1126*1.615)
With RA(1) and no IGC active armor value rises to 1216 (1126*1.08)
With RA(1) and IGC active armor value rises to 1909 (1126+(1126*0.08)+(1126*0.615))
With RA(2) and no IGC active armor value rises to 1306 (1126*1.16)
With RA(2) and IGC active armor value rises to 1999 (1126+(1126*0.16)+(1126*0.615))

Screenshots as evidence here.

Perhaps someone can check Juggernaut and Assassin as well?
Thank you for bringing this up. I will definitely check this in game. I've had very little time because of the holidays to keep up with this thread but I really need to get back to testing and verifying information in this thread.

What little time I have has been spent actually playing the game and not really examining it's mechanics. The Warrior story is extremely compelling. I promise though I will check this with my Jugg as soon as I am able.

tanis_'s Avatar


tanis_
01.04.2012 , 06:24 PM | #50
Here's a simplification for the MEAN MITIGATION section. The 100's are unnecessary since percent is literally "per 100." Removing them leaves:
Code:
((((1-A)*B)*(1-C))*(1-D)) + (((1-A)-((1-A)*B))*(1-D)) = T
1 - T = Mean Mitigation
Combining those two equations, and simplifying gives:

Code:
1 - (1-A)*B*(1-C)*(1-D) - (1-A)(1-B)(1-D) = Mean Mitigation
The above can be factored to:

Code:
1-(1-A)(1-D)(B*(1-C)+(1-B)) = Mean Mitigation
Dealing with crits in the same way that Baltazarr does, which is to assume that all crits from mobs do 150% damage (ie the mob has zero Surge, and I have no idea if that's true for any or all mobs), you get:

Code:
1-(1-A)(1-D)(B*(1-C)+(1-B)(1+.5*X)) = Mean Mitigation
Using Baltazarr's example as proof, his numbers are:

A= .16
B= .35
C= .24
D= .3665
X= .25

1-(1-.16)(1-.3665)(.35*(1-.24)+(1-.35)(1+.5*.25)) = .4693 = 46.93%, which is the same answer Baltazarr got.
"Beer is the path to the Dark Side. Beer leads to intoxication. Intoxication leads to hangover. Hangover leads to suffering." --Master Yoda, American Jedi