Juggernaut Tanking - Avoid like the plague!

Threat should be a challenge. That's something WoW broke after mid-TBC; they made holding threat a given.

Making tanking only about survival strips it of an entertaining, challenging dimension...threat NEEDS to be something you think about, not something you one-button away.

If you're not up to the challenge, it sounds like one of the other tanking classes might be more to your tastes.

From leveling my Jugg, the #1 issue is the sheer number of niche abilities. Getting a new ability with a list of limitations/requirements when we're already fighting for quickslot space is frustrating (I'm looking at you, Pommel Strike).

Tanking abilities need streamlining. Both Sundering Assault and Crushing Blow need CD reductions so we're able to utilize the damage (threat!) of CB. For comparison, Vengeance's Impale has a talent modifer that reduces the CD from 15 to 9 seconds. There's a 18/23/0 spec in the Jedi Guardian forums that utilizes Impale. It's a hassle to read as a SW, but I think it demonstrates Immortal abilities are inadequate.

Mitigation is too reliant on Retaliation use, which is something else that needs some review. A slight increase in duration is needed so you don't have to stare at it constantly. I'd like to see the rage cost removed completely via talents, but then it would get macro'ed into everything. However, if Jugg mitigation is based on including this in any calculation, we need to know it can have a 100% uptime like an Assassin's Dark Ward (which is limited only by the GCD).

That might be true
but let me split player base into 2 categories (just as example)
those that are spoiled by WOTLK and just want faceroll everything you can count that they will not take juggernauts and think little about game when they can take other 2 tanks just to faceroll content

then take other group for lets call them skilled group that perfectly know they class are 100% prepared for operation / raid whatever ( flask battle pots / stims ) in top gear equipment and know they rotation ... with this I really think that our dmg is too small to holt aggro on us backhand does not work (not sure about this some1 said that threat is just old tooltip) and with animation and ravage bugs well I really dont think we can hold something but we will see

also dont BS about not being up to challenge I leveled in holy tree with + healing with paladin did almost all server first about 15 to 30 in world so pls **** about this.

this is not about skill is about how warriors compare to other 2 classes ... I can hold everything without problem but people will just not take you because you are juggernaut ... well you got guild for that anyway but point is made

Good Juggernauts will be taken to tank. Bad Juggs will be replaced, as they should be....not because they're Juggs, but because they're bad.

C'mon, now there isn't such a glut of tanks that some poor Jugg is going to be left sitting JUST because they're a Jugg. I know it's easier to make your point by using Sky Is Falling hyperbole, but at the end of the day, if a Juggernaut is good at what they do, they'll get plenty of groups.

...and I'm not sure what your "server firsts" (amazing how many of those there are in anonymous threads, isn't it) on a healing character have to do with tanking challenge, but...grats?

You're assuming that the skill cap on Juggs is some how higher than on other Tanks. Which is just not true. A smart playing Jugg can be on par with other tanks yes, but put the same smart player on a Powertech, and he'll be alot better and be able to do things Juggs can never do. The class is just fundamentally broken.

I tanked Cata before nerfs and wotlk hc healed vanilla and tbc and cata (wotlk was just faceroll ) also raided with hunter alt and got warrior alt in vanilla ... so dont talk ******** healing is same hard as tanking ... no tanks are no gods like most of tanks thinks just because they hold aggro most of them think they are something special let me tell you no we are not something special on first kills and in top progress guild you need to be good at what you do so it does not matter if you do heal dmg or tank and no tank role is not harder always ( its based on encounters mostly ) so really do not think you are top just because you tank

and for your reply no it will not separete good jugs from bad one
if you do not have guild that know you they will simply not take you and does not care about your performance when noobie BH or sin can do same thing as you do but with 3 buttons and less baby sitting from group

for example paladins were viable tanks +- since start of tbc yet no one took them until much later. there's been lot of DK patches when they screwed tanking that one tanked with DK at that time just got /loled in face or situations where every top guild got DK tank cause it was much more easier that with any other .. this was at release of DKs I think

we are viable but other can do our role better so they will pick them ... simple as that

also + 1 to youwillburn

Agreed, although I disagree that the class is broken, if it was broken we wouldn't be able to tank at all, it just needs work, that's all.

I'm sorry, I know English isn't your first language (and that's fine....it's an international game), but I honestly am having trouble parsing out what you just said.

I THINK you said that you healed for a server first guild, which makes you highly knowledgeable about how tanking worked, because after all, you spammed FoL (you said it was on a pally, right?) well for a highly progressed guild....that should give you credentials to spout pretty much anything about any class and role. Right?

If I missed some nuance, lemme know. If not, go ahead and look up the "appeal to authority" fallacy. Then think hard about what authority you truly do have.

You've seen this happen in TOR? It's actually happened to you? Or are you just making an assumption about how things are going to work based on your own perceived skill inequities?

...except they did. Several of our server's server-first TBC kills were tanked by a paladin. No, they were't only in Hyjal. No, they weren't there for the trash....the paladin in that guild was simply better than the warrior.

ALL of our guild's first kills were tanked by a paladin. We weren't server first, but we weren't months behind, either. Progression guilds are smart...they tend to take the better tank, not the better class. That doesn't really speak to what'll happen in PUGs, which makes me wonder why you brought it up, but you did, so, there we are.


We'll have to see....it's a bit early to point at a falling sky. Again, I know you think hyperbole helps you make your point, but it really doesn't.

Tell you what....if I ever get passed over to tank a PUG because I'm a Jugg, I'll come back here, dig up this thread, and tell you how right you were. Hold your breath for me.

im copying and pasting a response i just did to another similar thread, to highlight my feelings on the issue

"As a newcomer and convert from WoW I feel OP's pain. Im a 24 juggie ... and find it damn impossible to hold aggro on a full stack of 4 or more mobs ... especially when 2 at opposite edges are ranged and stay out of your smash after your charge-pull.

But a big difference that I've learned between wow and swtor is: it doesnt really matter. This has never led to even the threat of a wipe. Either the dps focus the loose mobs, or cc them, either way they dont serve any significant threat.

In WoW were made to feel like utter trash, and total failures for any single mob that attacks anyone other you. In SWTOR you as a tank have to prioritise your targets, much like dps do ... as well as coordinate cc's (unlike wow, where your priority is HOLD EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE FOREVER or prepare yourself for a kick-vote).

It took me a few runs through Athiss to realise this. Of course, I still try everytime to better myself, and hold as many mobs as possible, but I'm confident that if I dont, we wont wipe. As long as the bosses and elites hold on tightly (and they do) I'm pretty golden.

Although after all of this, I have to however add, that I understand, through hearsay, that other tank classes have it much easier with aoe, but slightly harder with single target. Which leads me to believe that in raids, we'll fullfill the main tank rolls, with other classes tanking adds etc.

I also hope that Bioware engage us in some form on exactly how threat works, wether there is something were missing, the roles of various tank classes, biowares intent on how they should operate, their intent on future balancing. i know theyve been busy fixing up a new game, but they need some representation on the forums where we can engage them directly with questions. We only want to understand some aspects of this awesome game better."

Good grief, whatever happened to the grey area folks? I won't say Juggernauts are instant threat machines, because we're not. But neither is it impossible. Personally, I'd like to see a liiiiittle threat buff to Soresu form. But mainly, and I mean this, it's target of target that I'd like to see. I don't mind tab-targetting hitting mobs to get aggro, it's just too annoying to look at a mob to see if it's facing/attacking you. It's an unnecessary chore for tanking. Secondly, some sort of threat meter, so I know which mob I can ignore for the coming seconds, since no one is close to getting aggro. At the moment, I have to pretty much guess.

If those things are added/fixed, Juggernauts would be in the right place, but for now, whilst we're not useless, it's a bit too much effort and luck to fully enjoy tanking. Just my 2 cents