'End' game silliness.

there is a problem when people participate in discussions without employing the capability of reading comprehension.

how did you miss the fact that i have stated that progression should come through progression of story through expansions at an even pace - not making people repeat the same worn-out dungeon for 30 times ?



surely - not everyone likes to do anything particular. but, also not everyone has to oblige with the small majority that rushes to achievements - like you.

excuse me but its your problem that you rushed to level 48. you may argue you are not rushing, but that's your perspective. apparently game was designed properly for a progression speed of the majority of gamers, and not you.

its not anyone else's problem that you rush through things and then get bored. society just cant keep you satisfied, wherever you go.

this was also stated in my original post. however apparently reading comprehension lacked there again. or you just dont see yourself falling in that group.



anyone who did raiding in wow would easily tell you the percentages and the gear progression rate. and these are lucky numbers if you end up in good guilds too - some were not that lucky.

if someone is not aware of concepts like spreadsheets, places like elitistjerks and what talk goes on there, s/he should not talk about progression/mmo/endgames in grand fashion.



yes - instead 95% of the players should be obliged and entire resources be spent for some 5% selfish minority who were hardcore rushers/progressers enough to be able to see molten core in vanilla wow. even when wow was at its most hardcore point actually.

this is actual blizzard statistic. your segment is basically 5%, and you want everyone else to be b**ches to you.

we dont want that.



because your 5% segment wants everyone else to be subjected to the same gameplay. the rest, does not want that. you also demand the resources of entire development to be spent satisfying you.

your hobby does not supersede others'.



until expansion comes. and only true in games like everquest/wow which are timesinks for exploiting the progressive desires of some hardcore minority. so that they can be kept subscribed with a carrot that slowly drops.



congrats - you are a minority even among the minority that is the hardcore progressives. your kind is rare to chance against. and you are lucky. most of the hardcore raiding guilds quit when their progression was complete in the servers i played in wow. they went to other games.

so basically you are among the rare small percentage out of the 5% that has seen wow endgame raids. exceptions dont make a rule.

and excuse me if we refuse to have entire game designed around your ridiculously small population numbers.



wooooooooooow. seems like a lot of fun !! ................ ehhh ....



no it wouldnt.

naturally in any game, reaching end of a game, would end the game. also your character. in games that continue the story with expansions, you character gets carried to the next expansion.

only in everquest/wow timesinks, your character spends more time in 85 than level 84. and that is simply because a huge repetitive timesink is introduced into the game at that end point.. its not that there is 'much more to do' at that point - you do the same thing over and over and over.

normally the story should continue into new storyline and environments with a new book/expansion.



'somewhat interesting' does not suffice as 'entertainment'. a lot of things are somewhat interesting in life. yet, you rarely do any of them 40 times.



so basically you just want to reach the max point. so, you are an achiever - not a player. you want to achieve the highest point you can come to, and stay there. and that's your poison.

that's also our poison - it poisons games.




considering what you said above, it seems to be THE factor. for, if it was chance of dropping of great stuff, purples dropping randomly while you were questing would give you the same satisfaction. if it was progression, progressing while leveling is much more noticeable and engaging than seeing your progression in endgame spreadsheet statistics.

basically you are playing to max yourself out and achieve.



respect does not mean that i should see them as valid and i should oblige by them.

i respect these inclinations. but, these inclinations dont respect me. see, here you are, just continuing the trend of demanding that games should be entire progressive timesinks with huge repetitions in the end so you can feel maxed out.



yes. democracy is actually really annoying - especially when it allows people like your guildie, who is playing a game for achieving 'being unkillable', and is not satisfied because he is not able to achieve being more unkillable through this or that.

basically he was not playing the game for star wars, or environment, or social amenities, or creativity. he was playing it for maxing out and topping out.



and that is the sentence that summarizes the entire problem : you people play games for hardcore progression. and you want everyone else to fit in your preferred progression scheme, or else.

see, your gameplay, does not leave room for others' gameplay. its either/or. if anyone is given any freedom/liberty, your illusion of having maxed out through grinding effort in endgame, will shatter.

if otherwise, people will be subjected to a long unrewarding grind.



quite. and it is the new phenomenon in gaming.

and it is just another pointer how mmos do not need to be leveling maxed-out repetitive grindfests like wow or everquest.



how many people other than hardcore progressives who rushed through, or 'not rushed through' and got to 50 are pissy as of this point in swtor ?

noone. millions playing the game and enjoying the story and its progression.

progression is possible without repetitive endgame dungeons.



you work the stuff off of 95% majority people - people who enjoy progression of a story at a normal pace, rather than maxing out and grinding in the endgame dungeons for months.

because, the latter group, is a very small minority despite the apparent segmentations within themselves - there may be people grinding 12 hours in one boss, there may be people who meet 2 weeknights for 4 hours each to make 2 raids a week. (which group i was also raiding in by the way).

neither group can come close to the 95% 'casual' majority which does not like grinding/repetition.

therefore, arrangement of 'endgame' instances/content to be 4-5 times runs for this group, would prosper a game.



surely. repeating the same instance 40 times is MUCH better.

@OP You realy don't "get" MMOs , so I am guessing you at least work in the industry, if not BW/EA directly.

Mass story telling is very difficult, it becomes impossible when everyone wants to be "The Chosen One" . You cannot base a game on mass story telling of a personal nature. You can tell a meta story that everyone has a role (however small) in and let the player come up with the details of their story. BW style of story telling doesn't work in a mass enviroment.

The allure of "Endgame" is the social aspect of the game.

Wow

Might I suggest that you condense your thoughts into a more compact, and direct response; to make this discussion easier for all parties involved?

Anyway, you're still ignoring what's realistic for the Developers. These demands might be more reasonable for a company as wealthy as Blizzard; but they are simply outlandish for a much lower-profit studio, like BioWare

i am appalled at the fact that how people, who are in the minority hardcore segment of gaming, think that only their money exists, and noone else other than them pay for games.

excuse me, your segment - and my former segment by the way - is just 5%. a measly 5%, even in then-existing rather hardcore gaming crowd of vanilla wow - tbc. all kinds of segments that came to wow, ranging from ex starcraft players to ex everquest players, to ex ultima online players, fit in that.

and, from among this entire playerbase of already veteran gamers, ONLY 5% saw wow's endgame raids in vanilla and tbc.

a pathetically low amount from among even largely veteran gamer population.

who would pay monthly subscription to follow a good story ? pretty much rest of the population.

the same people who paid endless amount of cash for kotor 1/2, mass effect 1/2, dragon age 1/2. they are still paying and buying these, by the way.

the only drawbacks to these games was that, a new one of them was not coming out every 6 months.

thats the delusion of hardcore progressives. you only think your segment exists. whereas you are in the minority. even in veteran gamer crowd.

you are very, very wrong.

mass story telling easily works when you drop the 'hey you saved the galaxy' concept. then all players become participants in a big storyline, and moreover they feel that everything is falling in place.

bioware's only error is, making all their recent rpgs - and even swtor - so that the player is supposed to be the center of the galaxy. that is not only unrealistic and cheap feeling, but also would not work in a massively multiplayer setting as you said.

however if all players are just participants in a grand story, like how it really is in star wars story, and even lotr story, you can make it easily work. in both of these stories noone was the single handed savior - everyone had a role to play, and the end result came through group effort.


numerous non-wow/eq clone games contrast your proposition.

Ignorance is bliss. You assume it would work because no one has tried to launch an MMO with no end-game. What you don't realize is that they KNOW it won't work. A lot of people would pay $60 for a story, but you need to justify a monthly subscription after that. Good luck with that...

Everyone should just let this thread die. It's pretty clear that this guy isn't reasonable and really, REALLY enjoys watching himself type.

And raiding is that sense of saving the world, its how developers end their stories. Because that's what mmo's of this nature require, an endgame. You simple cannot remove it and replace it with what your calling for. Can't you see that your creating your own paradox here? Story cannot suffice by itself if your missing the gameplay which needs raiding and the repetition.

"numerous non-wow/eq clone games" - were not talking about those games in this thread.

Basically what your attempting to do is remove the mmo from the equation and make this a single player experience with dlc.

it doesnt.

it applies to all everquest/wow clones in the market. not all games are wow clones.

lotro, for example, pumps out new expansions (books) like there's no tomorrow. granted, they are sitting on lotro lore and have already made content.

but its not like the outfits like bioware, blizzard, which also have huge resources and also well established lores, cannot put out content fast enough.

if so, there would be no need for expansions. if the 'endgame' is what works, why is not that endgame remaining there forever, and instead an expansion is coming up ?

it apparently doesnt work. then, why not drop that 'endgame' and allocate the immense resources spent to making repetitive things less painful for players, to making new grand stories instead ?

mmos do not require an 'endgame'. it is what wow/eq clones had invented to keep people hooked, for some time.



your perspective on multiplayer is gravely limited since you seem to think that 'massive multiplayer' means '20 man raid grinding'.