'End' game silliness.

and your intelligible participation/contribution to the thread is zero. all you have told so far is your unwillingness to talk/discuss, and how others 'dont understand'.

there is nothing to reply to.

ugh. The thing is im going to just show u stuff and its going to go nowhere. its going to be very ugh.

ok then what about not replying to the thread, since you are, ugh, not willing to, ugh, talk ?

"and i want it to be that way. i dont want my gameplay separated in between something called 'leveling' and a neverending repetitive 'endgame'."

You want never ending leveling. There are so many elements within mmos aside from the ones you've pointed out that would cause the dreaded repetition and would have to be rebalanced apparently every month if new content would come out that the game could never sustain itself.

Your goals are completely unrealisitic from a development point of view and what you have in essence done is say "i hate endgames in wow clones, however i cannot realisitically think of a sufficent supplement for them."

Another underlining issue is the alienation of the social aspect of these types of mmo's. Your basically trying to make a game suited toward your tastes that cannot happen

ugh

Yeah, and when you beat all of something, that's the end. You then have to go over from a certain point and resume from there. So, no, it's not a silly concept. I can reach the end of any YouTube video. Does that mean that it's over forever? No, it doesn't. In the same way, I can reach the end of any game, but that doesn't mean that the game suddenly shuts down forever.

Because most people will spend more time at the max level then they will leveling. Want to know why? Because leveling for that particular toon does come to an absolute end. It might be nice to one day see an MMO that allows you to go back and redo certain quests, but that day may never come.

Also consider, not everyone likes learning to play 8 different toons. I finished leveling my Sith Juggernaut last week, I have no real desire to go back and level anything else. Hell, I kept trying to use Rune Strike when I was playing my Jugg, and that was at level 48.

Not really sure where you're getting the numbers from, but whatever. Armchair analyst is armchair analyst. But, based on much of the rest of your post, you very much want the same thing, just in a different section of the game.

Yeah, pretty much. Without it, your toon would hit 50, then do nothing. Seems like a waste to me.

Why, exactly, would I look at this from outside gaming? It's a hobby. I hobby I happen to be some-what competitive enough in. A hobby I would like to turn into a job in the near future. I don't care if people who aren't gamers can't understand what I do in the game, or why I do it.

Why, you ask? Two reasons: First, why should anyone's opinions of my hobbies have any impact on me? It's not like I'm hurting anyone else, though I do need to drop some poundage. Two, my friends and family (ya know, the people's opinions who I give some modicum of concern about), don't judge me for my hobbies. Outside of making the occasional joke.

Yeah, it does. Again, your character, unless you delete it, will spend more time at max level then not.

Wrong. Do you know how many times I did Karazhan? I lost count, but it was a lot. I did it more times not needing anything out of there, then I did actually wanting something. Off-set pieces, and fun stuff not withstanding. Do you know why I kept going back? Because I enjoyed it. Because I liked the fights. Because I liked trying to find new ways around things. Because I enjoyed *********** around with my guild.

Do you know how many times I did ICC? Too damn many. A lot of it sucked, I admit. Like Kara, however, there came a time when I was doing it simply because I could. Yes, there are some memorable loot drops, like when I got the first blood off of Festergut. And Deathbringer's Will. There are, however, far fewer of those memories, then there are of just being there.

For example: Having one of our guildies throw himself off of the edge before Lootship as a sacrifice to the lag boss. The first time we killed the Lich King, then laughed because the drops were useless. One time one of our guildies DC'd in the middle of the defile, and it covered the entire platform. The night were I accidentely started the Lootship fight, with just me and another tank on it. Then, in the same night, turning off the buff.

Then there was the first time I did the Festergut fight as a tank. My budget-*** got one-shot. That was funny.

So, again, gear is not the sole factor.

See above.

No, it most certainly does not.

There are a lot of opportunities, I agree. Does that mean there shouldn't be as many, if not more, at endgame? No, it doesn't. Again, your character will spend more time at 50, then at level 49. Unless you delete him.

It can, but it all depends on what you're doing, and how you're doing it. You can do the same essential act 40 times, but keep it at least somewhat interesting by just tweaking this or that.

Because that blue I picked up 10 minutes ago, might have just gotten replaced by the green quest reward. Because we're tired of spending twelve hours on Voss, with no real change. Because training sucks. There are all sorts of reasons.

That's certainly one factor, but not the only factor.

Grats, you can understand the idea of competition! But, once more, you're just focusing on one aspect of something that happens to annoy you, and thinking that that is the only thing that drives people and is, therefore, bad.

Not based on anything you've said, you don't.

Democracy is actually really annoying. More so in video games. It sounds to me like you want a sandbox game, akin to SWG 2.0. I happen to have several guildies who played SWG from beta until WoW's launch. One of them told about this annoying grind he went through to get mats to make a gun to make himself more un-killable then he already was.

Another will go on a tirade whenever the idea of player owned cities comes up, and his particular gripe with traveling across these massive planets, coming across these cities, and finding nothing.

I think a lot of people like the hard-coded progression scheme, as it gives them a clear, concise goal.


Fun fact: it is.

World of Levelquest? Yeah, sounds real fun.

WoW also introduced the idea of the accessible, self-contained, level progression system. Where you would go talk to this guy, who was clearly marked, pick up the quest, do the objectives, and turn it it. You would then get a nice little sound effect and, usually, some kind of reward.

Much improved over EverQuest's model of having to look for key-words when talking to an NPC, then type them back in the form of a question.

That really depends, actually. Ever play MineCraft? You're doing the same thing: building and creating. A lot of people play it for hours on end.

But there should be an endless level grind. Makes sense...if you don't think about it. The problem is when you have one raid, and three dungeons introduced, and that's it for six months. Looking at you, ICC. That's when people really start to get pissy.





Which faces you with the dilemma, who do you work off of? The guys like Paragon, who burn through stuff really quickly, and dedicate upwards of 12 hours in one sitting to one boss? Or, do you go off the the guys like my guild, who usually don't put in more then four hours a night, and a max of eight per week for actual progression.

Quote: Originally Posted by Enako

and all the players should progress to the new storyline and new adventure in front of them

A new expac after every raid? No thanks. Sounds like pay-to-win-nickel-and-dime-me-to-death-please. Not a fan. Less so in a Pay-to-play game.

LOL yes, the irony is that "Endgame" is endless, and a game without endgame ends.

Endgame is usually a highly social activity, and in that, it is its own reward. There's also a certain human nature that enjoys respect from peers and being part of something larger than oneself. Even though we're talking about mashing keys and mouse-clicking imaginary foes, the experience itself is real.

FML i could have just waited for kas.

sigh and major UGH

maybe if you paced your self. instead of trying to reach "end-game" so fast you would enjoy the factors of the games elements and wouldn't complain. but they again you properly would find something. but if your so UN-happy with the end-game why don't you try making your own mmorpg. because frankly the time and money and skill they spent into making this is evidently greater then your puppy tears. and frankly I am enjoying "taken my time" in the game meeting players pvp. trading and everything and not rushing to the end so it makes my game more realistic in the sense that fits my server "role-play pvp"

i spend more time role-playing. pvp. enjoying the games worlds and taken my time with everything thing that I'm not lvl 50 yet another 17 levels to go. but all in all

stop going on about how you reached end-game so soon and got nothing to do its your fault you didn't pace your self and taken in the wide variety that the game has to offer.

and in the end, you came up as the one who understood nothing about the mechanics of this entire mmo business then eh ....

all mmos are neverending leveling/progression. this is true for all games that do not present a sandbox content. for wow, for others. even kotor 1, was a game of progression/leveling.

you progress, you evolve, you go through the story. and what happens ? a new story comes in the expansion, and you continue from there.

this is the basic story of such games.

it is what happens at any rate. . there is no evading that.

the difference in between games is that, some of them create 'endgame' timesinks to exploit the progression desires of some small segment - like wow. there is a huge neverending repetition of the SAME stuff in such games.

and in some others, new content comes at an amiable rate - like lotro.

dont talk about what is realistic and what is unrealistic, if you dont know enough about mmo industry or played other games long enough. as you can see, there are games that pump out content at very reasonable speeds, and do not create exploitative timesinks in between their major story progression. (expansions/books).

social != 20 people having to group for repetitively grinding the same instances for 0.1% chance drops for months.

There is no mmo in the world that can produce "content" faster than we players can consume it.

The only way to make the content last longer "in the endgame" is to craft content in a way that encourages repetition. There has to be goals for the player to aim for. If the player lacks those goals he or she will probably lose interest in playing the game and unsubscribe.