Nitpicking for whatever reason and completely missing the point of the post of how one class is overepresented by far and not being touched. You don't want to respresent some op bosses in their highest diffuclty? Cool, don't count them

 

If the ops bosses in their highest difficulty are so easy you can literally do it with any class/spec with 320 gear, what does it matter? you might as well be writing about who has the fastest trash clears in belsavis. The whole point of "representation" lists is only for bosses that are so hard, that it is not worth bringing certain classes in because they will be too much of a burden or will only barely pull their weight, while the over represented classes are so good they can carry. You are missing the point of these lists completely.

Edited September 7, 2022 by sithBracer

If the ops bosses in their highest difficulty are so easy you can literally do it with any class/spec with 320 gear, what does it matter? you might as well be writing about who has the fastest trash clears in belsavis. The whole point of "representation" lists is only for bosses that are so hard, that it is not worth bringing certain classes in because they will be too much of a burden or will only barely pull their weight, while the over represented classes are so good they can carry. You are missing the point of these lists completely.

 

Not really because the only hard bosses that requiere certian specs or classes is because the utility they bring to the raid or boss mechanics, not the damage they do and the balance they are wanting to do is about their damage.

No class raid utlities are being removed or added, just flat out damage, and will make anything outside of classes that are requiered for some bosses in particular like pt, mara, sniper, inquisitor for their raid utility even more of a joke when juggerenaut completely wipes the floor on raw damage. And in the highest difficulty op that is gods, juggernauts are also requiered.

When it comes to representation the issue is raid utility not damage, and when it comes to damage juggernaut has the tools to be above the rest in most of the fights either because of its reflect or aoe spam

Edited September 7, 2022 by xxSHOONYxx

Not really because the only hard bosses that requiere certian specs or classes is because the utility they bring to the raid or boss mechanics, not the damage they do and the balance they are wanting to do is about their damage.

No class raid utlities are being removed or added, just flat out damage, and will make anything outside of classes that are requiered for some bosses in particular like pt, mara, sniper, inquisitor for their raid utility even more of a joke when juggerenaut completely wipes the floor on raw damage. And in the highest difficulty op that is gods, juggernauts are also requiered.

When it comes to representation the issue is raid utility not damage, and when it comes to damage juggernaut has the tools to be above the rest in most of the fights either because of its reflect or aoe spam

 

Then your entire earlier post is nonsense.

 

Lets go over your nonsense right now.

 

1. you say some classes are over performing and put out a list of the top parsers.

2. I laugh at the fact that you put trash like EV and easy KP bosses up their as the only classes sins and mercs are top in.

3. you claim that it is super important that we have wonderful special representation on these trash bosses just because ...

4. I point out that they are easy to beat in 320 gear with any class and that the point of the parses is to let us know the classes that are good/bad on the harder bosses. The classes that will more than likely hold everyone back, vs the ones that will carry.

5. now you are talking about utility (of which sins and mercs have what exactly?), completely making your large post with top parsers irrelevant.

 

I am just going to assume you are a troll right now, who just wants to argue to be a contrarian rather than actually having a conversation about anything intelligent.

I don't play pvp so no idea about the state of hatred there but my guess is it's being nerfed for pve. Their avarage parse counting people that dont know how to play the class is higher than some other classes max parses, same as concealment, and their sub 30% reaches the 43-44k dps.

 

The same way ap is probably getting nerfed because of pvp, or the nerf pyro is getting that misses my understanding, outside of fuel window pyro substained dps and crit is sub par for what is supposed to be, a substained dot class, pyro doens't need a damage nerf, needs a dot tactical like annihialation making its fuel window damage lower but increasing the substained dps. Superheated fuel should be deleted from the game or only usable by tanks, a dot class has no reason to have 100% critical and huge burst, that is for burst classes.

 

Some classes are overperforming and deserve a nerf, but then at the same time seems they are completely obvlivious as to why some classes are overeprsented or what makes them stronger, or they go overboard with the nerfes lowering dps 1-2k and maybe even more while creating a bigger gap on dps with the classes that are not being touched and leaving the biggest balance issue untouched, juggernaut (in pve).

 

This are the top operation parses on nim and hm those that only have hm as highest difficulty

 

juggernaut = zorn and toth, firebrand and stormcaller, kephess (ec), writhing horror, dread guads, kephess (tfb), tfb, dashroode, titan 6, olok, warlords, styrak, draxus, grob'thok, corruptor zero, bestia, calphayus, sparky, bulo, torque, cortanni, malaphar, commanders, revan, aivela and esne, izax, dxun encounter 1, dxun encouther 2, huntmaster, dominique, geo queen, bonethrasher, karagga

sniper = col vorgar, sword squadron, trandos,

pt = operator ix, nefra, brontes, council, underlurker, tyth, red, ip-cpt

marauder = thrasher, operation chief, tyrans, raptus, nahut, apex, xeno, colossal monolith, fabricator,

sorc = watchdog, eyeless, soa

merc = annahilation droid, gharj

operative = kanoth, infernal council

assassin = golden fury, jarg and sorno, foreman crusher,

 

Juggernaut has top parses on 33 bosses

Marauder has top parses on 9 bosses

Pt has top parses on 8 bosses

Sniper has top parses on 3 bosses

Sorc has top parses on 3 bosses

Assassin has top parse on 3 bosses

Operative has top parses on 2 bosses

Merc has top parses on 2 bosses

 

 

Juggernaut has top parses on 33 of the 61 bosses (35 out of 63 if you count hateful and dreadful), yet they are not being touched... :D:D:D

And it will be stronger after all the other classes being nerfed, it's time boys and girls, time for everyone to reroll to juggernaut or marauder if you feel spicy

 

Look, I'm not saying juggernaut is bad - but holy moly it's CTP and shatter explosion are a strong, and more importantly FUN experience. Yes obviously juggernaut is going to have topparse on bosses that have adds, if your team ignores them completely your damage will skyrocked.

 

Also I just feel like mentioning this, but when you wrote that juggernaut has topparse on hateful I was like "*** no it doesn't" marauders and pts are actually made for this boss. Sure enough, juggernaut had a topparse - but it used a crystal. Not only is it beyond reason to say "X Class is broken because it has the most topparses", there should also only be parses that do not utilize a crystal in this statistic.

Then your entire earlier post is nonsense.

 

Lets go over your nonsense right now.

 

1. you say some classes are over performing and put out a list of the top parsers.

2. I laugh at the fact that you put trash like EV and easy KP bosses up their as the only classes sins and mercs are top in.

3. you claim that it is super important that we have wonderful special representation on these trash bosses just because ...

4. I point out that they are easy to beat in 320 gear with any class and that the point of the parses is to let us know the classes that are good/bad on the harder bosses. The classes that will more than likely hold everyone back, vs the ones that will carry.

5. now you are talking about utility (of which sins and mercs have what exactly?), completely making your large post with top parsers irrelevant.

 

I am just going to assume you are a troll right now, who just wants to argue to be a contrarian rather than actually having a conversation about anything intelligent.

 

Of course some classes are overperforming. They said for years when it comes to damage the balance they were going for was dot melee on top and burst ranged on bottom.

 

Ev and KP while easy and have no mechanics or meta clases for them also show that when it comes to damage there are other classes that are fine

 

I never claimed it was needed representation in easy bosses, even in most nim bosses you can bring whatever you want.

 

What makes a class good or bad on hard bosses is their utility, like no matter how much damage an assassin or operative or wahtever does the meta for nahut will always be 3 pts and 1 marauder because what they bring to the table.

 

I always said the main issue with the representation in operations is utility on previous posts, everyone with knowledge of the game and high end ops knows it. No class can compete with the overloaded utlity that some classes have even if their damage is the same.

 

Nerfing every class but the ones still dominating doesnt make much sense in my eyes, especially after a health nerf on every op. Would be much easier and anger less people to just buff underperforming classes and if ops are too easy on their eyes revert the health nerf on op bosses. And in 8.0 or a big patch like 7.2 or when r4 nim comes out adress the real issue with balancing that is fixing some tacticals and mostly raid utility that marauder, pt, sniper and now jug with slam spam have over the other clases

 

That doesn't mean that i want sorc nerfed, my issue with the nerfs is that if they went overboard with the hp reduction of ops and now they are nerfing dps because of it they also need to nerf marauder and juggernaut, or just buff marskman arsenal and leave the others like they are now until raid utility and tactials can be changed to make it more fair

 

This is what makes people play what they play in nim on specific fights, not their damage.

 

Do you need aoe damage? Bring a slam spam juggernaut and the fight becomes a sm/hm and it makes all the other classes with dot cleave irrelevant like pyro (worst dot spread of the dot classes), hatred, annihilation, lethality, virulence, io, madness or engineering.

 

Do you need burst damage in a short window? Bring a pt, 100% crit chance on a dot spec (worst tactical since it makes no sense for the identity of a dot class, pyro needs a reworked tactical not a damage nerf with the same broken 100% critical) or 75ish percent on a class with thermal det and double energy burst is too much vs other classes

 

Your healers need help? Bring annihilation for the offheals

 

You need constant damage with target swapping on fairly high hp adds? Bring fury/rage

 

Your healers still need more help? Bring a sniper or marauder if tanks are taking white damage

 

You need movement on demand? Or debuffs that are cleansed by movement abilities? Bring a marauder for predation

 

Some mechanics can be skiped by a reflect or ability that negates damage? Bring juggernaut, pt, merc, assasin. Some mechanics allow a lot of damage by reflecting? Bring juggernaut, pt, merc, operative.

 

You need to kill a boss fast under 30% hp? Bring a hatred assassin

 

You need a knockback? Bring a assassin or sorc

 

Need to survive a lot of damage in a short time like izax omnicanon? Bring a sorc

 

But bioware is balancing on the damage not the raid utility now, so the list makes sense how one class is wiping the floor over the rest when it comes to damage and is not even being touched. Even if the main issue on why some classes are picked over others is utility, that 1 class out of 7 others has the 55.6% of top parses of every boss on their highest difficulty is anything but balanced.

 

I'm going to assume that of you as well and bored talking to a wall, have fun and good luck

Look, I'm not saying juggernaut is bad - but holy moly it's CTP and shatter explosion are a strong, and more importantly FUN experience. Yes obviously juggernaut is going to have topparse on bosses that have adds, if your team ignores them completely your damage will skyrocked.

 

Also I just feel like mentioning this, but when you wrote that juggernaut has topparse on hateful I was like "*** no it doesn't" marauders and pts are actually made for this boss. Sure enough, juggernaut had a topparse - but it used a crystal. Not only is it beyond reason to say "X Class is broken because it has the most topparses", there should also only be parses that do not utilize a crystal in this statistic.

 

Oh, 100% what breaks juggernaut is shatter burst or cut to pieces or both, which should be an easy fix. I thought crystals now didn't work or gave any stats since they were removed, if they do then on that boss is my bad

Edited September 7, 2022 by xxSHOONYxx

Oh, 100% what breaks juggernaut is shatter burst or cut to pieces or both, which should be an easy fix. I thought crystals now didn't work or gave any stats since they were removed, if they do then on that boss is my bad

 

It just doesn't need fixing, it's just a fun thing to do - but almost never actually useful. All you do is steal DPS from the other players, this is why jug looks strong. On let's say grobthok a pyro gets a better parse if there isn't a juggernaut present.

Of course some classes are overperforming. They said for years when it comes to damage the balance they were going for was dot melee on top and burst ranged on bottom.

 

ok, I am 100% sure you are a troll now, so this will be my last reply to you. you can have the last word if you like, I won't be reading it.

 

Ev and KP while easy and have no mechanics or meta clases for them also show that when it comes to damage there are other classes that are fine

 

EV can KP can be done in 320 greens. They are starter ops to get people geared up and used to the raiding scene on a somewhat more difficult level than sm. Putting them up there trying to say "damage is fine because sorno hehehe" is just trolling. Brescia HM, is harder than anything in those ops.

 

I never claimed it was needed representation in easy bosses, even in most nim bosses you can bring whatever you want.

 

uhuh. So what is this? You are complaining about some classes doing too much damage on EV and KP and not being touched, as a response to me laughing about you and your representation nonsense:

 

 

 

As for your nonsense NiM remark. Yes, most CAN be done with almost any class, but which classes do you think will be preferred by a progression raiding team that is starting out? Probably the meta unless someone is really good with a non meta class, right? By nerfing their damage, you are making these classes even more undesirable than they are.

 

What makes a class good or bad on hard bosses is their utility, like no matter how much damage an assassin or operative or wahtever does the meta for nahut will always be 3 pts and 1 marauder because what they bring to the table.

 

Really? Are you serious? Wait, are you telling me ... that abilities that assist your team in a fight are ... useful? OMG, no way. What are you going to tell me next, that the sky is blue? Water ... isn't wet, is it? No way, that is just too much new information.

 

Yeah, of course classes are taken for their utility. Problem is, some classes, like hatred sin don't have utility and never will because BW. Damage is all they have. They have nothing else and never will (at least not until the next expansion). So nerfing the damage is already making an undesirable class even less desirable. Do you understand the problem now? If a class is missing utility/defenses/whatever, it needs something to compensate and damage is the most simple thing to give them. Now, would I love it if BW got off their behinds and actually gave sins some raid utility? Sure, I've been asking for it for years, but it is obviously never going to happen. so buffing their damage to be higher than the classes with the utility would make them a bit more desirable. Still not as the desirable as the meta classes with utility, but a bit more than they currently are. Now, lets see if the troll has learned something. What do you think nerfing damage on classes that already are less desirable because they have no utility? You can use google/call a friend if this is too complex for you.

 

I always said the main issue with the representation in operations is utility on previous posts, everyone with knowledge of the game and high end ops knows it. No class can compete with the overloaded utlity that some classes have even if their damage is the same.

 

look above I addressed this.

Edited September 7, 2022 by sithBracer

I don't understand why TTT tactical is being touched for Hatred Assassin. I see a lot of comments about 'degenerate' gameplay of using Saber Strike for maximizing dps. This is just simply not true. Hatred rotation is a 12 GCD rotation and only 2-3 of that is Saber Strike. 2 if you can get a Phantom Stride + Assassinate in, 3 otherwise. This is very similar to other classes. Lightning sorc casts 3x Lightning bolt in a row, Madness sorc casts 3xForce Lightning. Both Arsenal and Pyro PT have to use basic attack to keep their heat in check.

 

This change will introduce more force management as well as throw the timing of Recklessness off. That will in turn allow our buffs to fall of, causing the damage to severely drop. Hatred mostly catches up in dps in sub 30%. Prior to that, we are barely keeping up with the rest of the specs and are somewhere in the middle at best. It's a melee dot class with the least amount of utility, and definitely feels paper thin.

 

Saber Strikes is completely beating out Trash, that is absolutely degenerate Saber Strike usage. Lightning bolt isn't a basic attack, it's a force costing spammable (like Trash). You mention Arsenal and Pyro. They both strike a balance between their energy costing filler versus their Basic Attack. Exactly as Hatred used to have with Trash versus Saber Strikes. Exactly what I would like to see back.

 

So not completely eliminating the use of Saber Strikes, but making Trash (force permitting) do more than Saber Strikes. Hell at this point even Leeching Strike barely gets used because you need to keep Saber Strikesing for TTT.

Hi all!

 

First of all, I wanted to thank you again for all your feedback. We're reading all of it and we really appreciated the well thought out posts.

 

I also wanted to share a few changes we've decided upon after doing some additional internal balance and taking your feedback into consideration.

 

The first note is we are changing the new Madness Sorc tactical from the design in the OP to:

"Demolish hits all nearby targets affected by your Deathmark."

 

We are also giving Darkness back their DR on Severing Slash. The originally intended design is still something we want to do, but not without moving that DR somewhere else. You can expect future Darkness changes in upcoming patches to address or re-allocate where their DR bonuses come from.

 

Although we felt the proposed changes to Hatred were fair, we understand some concern regarding force management based off of the feedback we are reading. As such, we're also making a few additional changes to Hatred. We are slightly improving the Two Time Trouble Tactical in that it will have a proc chance of 60% for non-basic melee attacks instead of 50%. While this won't completely make up for the fact that Saber Strike is no longer part of it, this, along with other changes to Force management we are making in 7.1.1 (listed in my original post) should give Hatred a smoother rotation while requiring less Saber Strikes.

 

Another change we are making to Hatred concerns changes to another passive mod choice: Hungering Force. It now reads:

"The critical hit chance, critical hit damage, and life stolen of your periodic damage effects is increased by 10% Whenever you are healed by a Hatred discipline effect, you generate 2 Force."

It's worth noting that Hungering Force has always generated 2 Force, it's tooltip has however been incorrect since 7.0 launch. However, the life steal component is new.

 

Finally, a small change for Concealment Operative, increasing the duration of their Tactical Critical passive from 6 seconds to 8 seconds. This will allow players easier uptime.

 

We continue to read your feedback and work on these balance changes, please don't take this post as final.

 

Thanks,

-Chris

After reading this whole thread (phew!) I do agree with most of it. The bottom line is, all classes do not have to do the same dps. Some can be better at single target, some aoe, and some at support. The problem I'm seeing is what happens with a lot of MMO's , they are trying to make every class be able to do the same, and that totally ruins the viability of everything.

 

Some examples (not actual examples but thoughts in my head)

A class that does big single target dps might not bring anything else to the raid (i.e. buffs/debuffs off tank off heals whatever)

A class that does aoe dps might not do much single target but would have something else to make it viable like a debuff on targets to make other people do more dps.

Maybe a caster/ranged type class might do less dps but bring other utilities to raid in the form of debuffs or some sort of DCD (like shields or damage reduction for everyone around it for a few seconds etc).

A class might have really good single target heals, single target damage reduction buffs (i.e. tank healers) but not as much aoe or dcds.

A class might have huge burst but much less sustain to help with some add phases or whatnot, or may have much higher damage to the boss under 20-30% for last stand phases but less burst and sustain. Everything should be viable, even CC could be an option (add some parts of ops that need CC for more mechanics)

The goal is to have a stronger operations group when it has a balance of multiple classes making it more viable to have a diversity of classes vs only having a few viable. One way to do this is with buffs/debuffs, say the highest single target dps class (solo) has debuffs that go on the target that make other classes do more damage , for example if that class does tech damage it would have debuffs that would increase force dmg or even all dmg to the target thus buffing other classes but not itself. The synergy between class types would make almost any class viable due to one of the utilities or buffs/debuffs it provides. Ops should be designed around this synergy at some point and not only rely on DPS. DPS shouldn't be a main focus in completing an operation. I agree there could be some DPS check sequences but that shouldn't be the focus (i.e. the entire operation is 10 times easier just because dps is way higher should not be something ever said lol) . The mechanics should determine it mostly.

 

To me the most fun is everyone working together and using all of the synergy between classes and utilities, buffs, debuffs etc at the right time to get through it. Right now it seems to be moving more to only DPS matters and not much else. Even healing is not satisfying at all because it's so nerfed now compared to other games or even in 6.0 of this game. Also there has to be multiple ways to beat an encounter with different class makeups. Some older games I played before, if you didn't have a diversity of classes in the raid , the encounter was almost impossible, which made it really difficult to get a group together, so that is one consideration, but it also made the game way more interesting.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Zindoki

Assassin may not have a lot of utility in PvE, but it has in PvP. If they buff the damage of sin, not only would it break PvP even more, no it also wouldn't be meta because as you said it just has nothing but damage. But then we have the problem of how much DPS less should a marauder do because they have predation? Do you see were this line of thought leads to? It leads to the fact that assassin would be more popular in content easy enough that you can bring whatever, but you can already so no - sin does not need a buff.

Assassin may not have a lot of utility in PvE, but it has in PvP. If they buff the damage of sin, not only would it break PvP even more, no it also wouldn't be meta because as you said it just has nothing but damage. But then we have the problem of how much DPS less should a marauder do because they have predation? Do you see were this line of thought leads to? It leads to the fact that assassin would be more popular in content easy enough that you can bring whatever, but you can already so no - sin does not need a buff.

 

It could get a buff in group utility instead of raw damage. But mostly what it needs is something the cancel out the changes being made right now. I fully understand them changing TTT, but with these changes their dps will plummet, and they'll lose the one thing they have. Right now Hatred is absolutely viable in R4, if it can no longer reliable keep up Maliciousness, forget about it. Unless they buff up some other talents to compensate.

Assassin may not have a lot of utility in PvE, but it has in PvP. If they buff the damage of sin, not only would it break PvP even more, no it also wouldn't be meta because as you said it just has nothing but damage. But then we have the problem of how much DPS less should a marauder do because they have predation? Do you see were this line of thought leads to? It leads to the fact that assassin would be more popular in content easy enough that you can bring whatever, but you can already so no - sin does not need a buff.

 

I'm assuming you are thinking about deception when we are talking about hatred which is getting the nerf.

 

As for deception, it is really strong only in 4dps solo ranked arenas, nowhere else. Its fighting style is too reliant on the opener. After the opener, it is just a low slash bot. This works well in 4dps arenas where you want to get the kill as fast as you can (especially that very important first kill). In warzones it is below average due to the fact that it is hard to constantly reuse the opener as you are always stuck in combat, and lets the honest that 1 first kill doesn't matter as much because they will be back in 10 seconds. Add to that it is more annoying chasing madness sorcs around the giant stage when you wasted your phantom stride for an opener. In a solo ranked with a tank involved, the tank can taunt/soak up the opener from the sin, after which the sin will have nothing left and will be a burden to their team. In a tank/heals solo ranked, deception is trash tier since the damage is soaked up and healed through. It doesn't have enough derp to be effective and pressure healer in a tank/heals match.

 

I don't think deception needs more damage, it needs more of a redesign. Right now the opener is just extremely overpowered causing everyone to cry "nerf", and when (not if, but when) it gets nerfed (and I promise you it will), because deception has nothing else it will go right in the trash even in solo ranked 4dps.

Edited September 8, 2022 by sithBracer

Hatred/Serenity - Nerf

 

Devs have you tested this yourself? Can you keep your 2 stacks up or do they constantly fall off. If you can keep your buff on target without falling off then ok cool we will just learn to play it different.

Can't keep the buff up? Then rework it again.....

 

Darkness Dr - Cool Shadow/Sins need that dr

 

Dps Balances

Thoughts ppl have

 

1. Dps all shouldn't do the same dps

 

I disagree here. I beleive true # balance is all dps have the same potential to hit the same numbers.

 

2. Dps should be different since some classes have more raid utility.

Sure Sure, I get that totally. Example I run PT for 1st boss r4 then switch to Anni for Watchdog. For Raid utility, then personal preference. Sure but I dont view this as class issue. It a raid mechanic issue. For example who of us is going to bring 4 melee dps to HM Master Blaster. You literally can't mechanic wise. Is that a class issue? No the mechanics in the raid itself is what causes people to play certain things.

 

Let's take SM raids for example where mechanics are almost non existant. If classes arent balanced and cant hit the same dps as others, what happens to the morale of someone running their favorite class and can't hit the #s other people can just because it was decided their Utility should hold them back. That's not fun or engaging at all.

 

My point is Sure other classes have more Utility some have less Utility, but its really the mechanics in different raid bosses that make those utilities useful. And it always will be thay was as long as those mechanics exist. In harder content You almost always will take those classes until your raid team is extremely fluent and use other classes then because you mastered the raid.

 

I really dont see the problem balancing dps #s.

Hi all!

 

First of all, I wanted to thank you again for all your feedback. We're reading all of it and we really appreciated the well thought out posts.

 

I also wanted to share a few changes we've decided upon after doing some additional internal balance and taking your feedback into consideration.

 

The first note is we are changing the new Madness Sorc tactical from the design in the OP to:

"Demolish hits all nearby targets affected by your Deathmark."

 

We are also giving Darkness back their DR on Severing Slash. The originally intended design is still something we want to do, but not without moving that DR somewhere else. You can expect future Darkness changes in upcoming patches to address or re-allocate where their DR bonuses come from.

 

Although we felt the proposed changes to Hatred were fair, we understand some concern regarding force management based off of the feedback we are reading. As such, we're also making a few additional changes to Hatred. We are slightly improving the Two Time Trouble Tactical in that it will have a proc chance of 60% for non-basic melee attacks instead of 50%. While this won't completely make up for the fact that Saber Strike is no longer part of it, this, along with other changes to Force management we are making in 7.1.1 (listed in my original post) should give Hatred a smoother rotation while requiring less Saber Strikes.

 

Another change we are making to Hatred concerns changes to another passive mod choice: Hungering Force. It now reads:

"The critical hit chance, critical hit damage, and life stolen of your periodic damage effects is increased by 10% Whenever you are healed by a Hatred discipline effect, you generate 2 Force."

It's worth noting that Hungering Force has always generated 2 Force, it's tooltip has however been incorrect since 7.0 launch. However, the life steal component is new.

 

Finally, a small change for Concealment Operative, increasing the duration of their Tactical Critical passive from 6 seconds to 8 seconds. This will allow players easier uptime.

 

We continue to read your feedback and work on these balance changes, please don't take this post as final.

 

Thanks,

-Chris

 

Glad that some tweaks are being made, but you still haven't explained why classes in the middle are the ones being changed. Overall this is just going to bring more classes down.

 

I don't know if this next part would be handled by the same members of the team or not. (Because if it is I feel this should take priority)

 

If part of the reason these changes are happening (which we still don't really have an answer for) is because the older operations are to easy, then time should be spent balancing the Operation difficulty before trying to balance the classes. The gap in difficulty between SM R-4 and SM Dread Palace is HUGE. I've done Veteran Ops easier than SM R-4. As it is now, people are going into older Ops with no tanks (a continued slap in the face to our tank players) and 1 healer. Which just places all the stress of completing the Op on that 1 healer. The Operation balance is a mess and it's not fun.

 

But if our performance in these activities is the catalyst for the new changes, then it's the content that needs adjusting not the classes. And until they are a bit more balanced maybe consider taking R4 out of the group finder rotation. People are going to run the new Op, there is no worry there. But having it in the GF list makes it difficult to just queue for Ops due to the wild changes in difficulty.

 

I want to again state that I don't know if Operation and Class balance are handled by the same people or not, but the Operation balance should be addressed sooner rather than later.

 

And I beg you to give us a bit more explanation as why changes get made in the future. I think it would go a long way towards allowing us to give you more helpful feedback, as well as hopefully toning down the vitriol.

 

Thank you for your time, enjoy the rest of your day!

Hi all!

 

First of all, I wanted to thank you again for all your feedback. We're reading all of it and we really appreciated the well thought out posts.

 

The first note is we are changing the new Madness Sorc tactical from the design in the OP to:

"Demolish hits all nearby targets affected by your Deathmark."

 

Basically getting the old tactical back is perfect and not having it mess around with slow effects is great.

 

I do still really really want to see Madness's core issue be addressed however - the fact that the basic rotation requires you to refresh your dots before they've fully expired.

Madness has a really wonky rotation where you need to cut off force lightning and refresh both dots early, something that has been an issue for years now.

This could be fixed by having certain abilities refresh each dot separately or refresh with death field, or play around with their dutations and cooldowns of other abilities.

 

On the subject of Sorcecers, I can't help but notice no changes to the Polarizing morph for Corruption yet...

 

We are slightly improving the Two Time Trouble Tactical in that it will have a proc chance of 60% for non-basic melee attacks instead of 50%.

 

Nice to see this, don't know if it will be enough if the intent is to keep hatred's dps the same as when saber strike was being used exclusively.

 

Something I just thought of is that it could maybe be interesting to see leeching strike refresh creeping terror (and auto proc it?).

This would free up one gcd per rotation to be used on a damage ability which would help split the difference between the current and new rotation that reintroduces thrash.

Hi all!

 

First of all, I wanted to thank you again for all your feedback. We're reading all of it and we really appreciated the well thought out posts.

 

I also wanted to share a few changes we've decided upon after doing some additional internal balance and taking your feedback into consideration.

 

The first note is we are changing the new Madness Sorc tactical from the design in the OP to:

"Demolish hits all nearby targets affected by your Deathmark."

 

We are also giving Darkness back their DR on Severing Slash. The originally intended design is still something we want to do, but not without moving that DR somewhere else. You can expect future Darkness changes in upcoming patches to address or re-allocate where their DR bonuses come from.

 

Although we felt the proposed changes to Hatred were fair, we understand some concern regarding force management based off of the feedback we are reading. As such, we're also making a few additional changes to Hatred. We are slightly improving the Two Time Trouble Tactical in that it will have a proc chance of 60% for non-basic melee attacks instead of 50%. While this won't completely make up for the fact that Saber Strike is no longer part of it, this, along with other changes to Force management we are making in 7.1.1 (listed in my original post) should give Hatred a smoother rotation while requiring less Saber Strikes.

 

Another change we are making to Hatred concerns changes to another passive mod choice: Hungering Force. It now reads:

"The critical hit chance, critical hit damage, and life stolen of your periodic damage effects is increased by 10% Whenever you are healed by a Hatred discipline effect, you generate 2 Force."

It's worth noting that Hungering Force has always generated 2 Force, it's tooltip has however been incorrect since 7.0 launch. However, the life steal component is new.

 

Finally, a small change for Concealment Operative, increasing the duration of their Tactical Critical passive from 6 seconds to 8 seconds. This will allow players easier uptime.

 

We continue to read your feedback and work on these balance changes, please don't take this post as final.

 

Thanks,

-Chris

 

I really hope that you reconsider lightning/telekinetics balacing aswell, because what you want to do now to sorc is removing around 12-15% from damage, so sorc ling/tk average dps will go to like 26k rock bottom. I do appreaciate your effort in trying to balance specs, but with that nerf lightning will go below marksman, also rng on sorc is huge, if you have low crits / procs from forked lightning then even with 340 gear your dps will be lower than 30k.

I dont mind really if u make changes to the spec, but dont make 3-4k dps nerf. I would still like to bring lightning/tk in nim raids atleast sometimes.

Please do not increase lightning sorcerer cast time for Halted Offensive!

 

1. the cast time is already insanely long at 2.5 seconds; I was in operation last night and things were dying before it finished casting.

2. lightning socrerer already got hit with the nerf bat from 6.x; it's not even close to the top parsing combat styles any more... it doesn't need nerfing.

 

And on top of that you say you're reducing the damage on top of making the cast time longer.

I'm sorry but you can't claim QoL improvements and then make cast times longer AND reduce damage.

 

You said these were meant to be Quality of Life IMPROVEMENTS

Making cast times longer only makes the likelyhood of a critter dying before the end of the cast more likely.

This is NOT an improvement.

Something I just thought of is that it could maybe be interesting to see leeching strike refresh creeping terror (and auto proc it?).

This would free up one gcd per rotation to be used on a damage ability which would help split the difference between the current and new rotation that reintroduces thrash.

 

+1 for this proposed change. For the high amount of force Leeching Strike consumes, and for its longer cooldown, in my opinion it should always proc TTT ticks. It would likely encourage the ability's usage more often, and would allow players to consistently achieve better damage with the ability, instead of restricting its usage to sub 30% in order to prevent potential damage losses by not getting the TTT proc. Plus, the point of Assassinate is to be the big sub 30% hard hitter, not Leeching Strike. It also means that players will have to be more even more careful with force management in order to weigh in the risk of getting more damage for potentially having to use Saber Strike.

 

Another change we are making to Hatred concerns changes to another passive mod choice: Hungering Force. It now reads:

"The critical hit chance, critical hit damage, and life stolen of your periodic damage effects is increased by 10% Whenever you are healed by a Hatred discipline effect, you generate 2 Force."

It's worth noting that Hungering Force has always generated 2 Force, it's tooltip has however been incorrect since 7.0 launch. However, the life steal component is new.

 

Thank you!! This will definitely require some testing, however this may hopefully make Hungering Force more viable of a choice over Maliciousness, especially in PvP with the Quick Escalation tactical, or just generally with the bonus life steal. Now... if you want to make the level 43 tier super competitive choice wise, decreasing the cooldown of Overcharged Saber might help with that. Overcharged Saber isn't the most useful on Hatred, however, the burst heals it provides can be super useful in PvP, however, the long-term sustain that Hungering Force and Maliciousness provides will probably continue to outclass this ability. Decreasing the cooldown of it seems like the best approach, as this was done with Furious Power on Jugg, which made it a more appealing choice to some players.

 

Finally, and I know this is a tall order, can the viability of the Ruin mod for Eradicate be looked into? Currently the bouncing Eradicate only occurs when an enemy or player is killed with Eradicate on them, and the bonus damage that is applied on a primed target is only situationally better than the other two options at that tier. This option is not very good in solo content either, since taking Eradication Ray + Maliciousness is generally the stronger and more enjoyable to use combo. I wonder if giving the mod the ability to make Eradicate give enemies the Assailable debuff would be a good fit, especially since that debuff also increases the damage of Creeping Terror, and would give Hatred a little bit more raid utility (Although it would make IO players cry since they're the primary source of Assailable). Or the mod could be overhauled, etc.

 

Thanks again for the extra Hatred changes and good communication!

Edited September 8, 2022 by Merkalto

Something I just thought of is that it could maybe be interesting to see leeching strike refresh creeping terror (and auto proc it?).

 

No thank you, I do not want another auto-refreshing DoT.

 

+1 for this proposed change. For the high amount of force Leeching Strike consumes, and for its longer cooldown, in my opinion it should always proc TTT ticks. It would likely encourage the ability's usage more often, and would allow players to consistently achieve better damage with the ability, instead of restricting its usage to sub 30% in order to prevent potential damage losses by not getting the TTT proc.

 

You already use Leeching Strike basically on cooldown. Yes, even above 30%. The "saber strike only" meta was leaning on RNG for high dummy parses, and had little to do with how Hatred was/is actually played.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Crystal_Mind

Hello everyone,

 

Chris here again, Gameplay Designer on SWTOR. I wanted to share with you some upcoming balance changes planned for 7.1.1 (Jackie mentioned it in this thread). I’ve spoken of our post 7.0 balance plan in the past, and if you are curious about that and our philosophy going forward with regards to balance, you can find that here.

 

With 7.1.1, we are mostly focused on healer balance and various QoL (quality of life) improvements across the classes. We’ve taken a lot of your feedback and applied that to the changes we are making in 7.1.1. This includes changes to every healer with Operatives / Scoundrel, Mercenaries / Commandos, and Sorcerers / Sages in the form of balance adjustments, passive mod redesigns, and QoL improvements. In many cases, we’ve adjusted their HPS (heal per second) output to be higher, as we noticed they weren’t reaching our internal targets. Operatives, while their healing is being brought down in some cases, are being brought up in others. Our goal with this change is to equalize healer HPS across all combat styles while retaining their individual class identity.

 

In addition to balance changes across healers, we’ve also improved some survivability in a few classes. While these may seem to be small adjustments, we feel these changes will bring them more in line with other classes.

 

Finally, we have continued to adjust our DPS (damage per second) balance across multiple combat styles for 7.1.1, with the intention to narrow the gap between the top and bottom DPS classes. We continue to strive for making every combat style viable while retaining what makes it unique.

 

We are also introducing two new Tacticals for 7.1.1 to replace old Tactical items that were removed with 7.0. One is for Advanced Prototype / Tactics Powertechs and the other is for Madness / Balance Sorcerers / Sages.

 

7.1.1 will not be available on PTS, but you can see a list of tentative changes below. We’d love to hear your thoughts and feedback on our direction, as we appreciated all your contributions to 7.1.

 

Here are some of the balance changes you can expect from 7.1.1. Note that all of this is subject to change.

 

 

 

Operative / Scoundrel

 

• Evasion / Dodge now additionally lowers threat by a moderate amount and lasts one second longer.
  
• Quick Countermeasures and Sly Countermeasures now additionally grant 60% AOE damage reduction while Evasion is active.
  
• This now additionally works with the Evasive Screen / Skedaddle mod.
  

 

Medicine / Sawbones

• Reduced the Kolto Burst mod’s healing on secondary targets by 50%.
  
• The Kolto Stim mod now additionally grants 10% increased healing to Kolto Injection.
  
• Reduced the healing received bonus given by Nano Mark mod from 20% to 10%.
  
• Redesigned “Defensive Injection” mod, which is now called “Reactive Substance”, and does the following:
  
• Kolto Injection applies a reactive substance to the target for 10 seconds. If the target is dealt damage during this time, they are healed. Stacks up to 2 times.
  

 

Concealment / Scrapper

• Reduced the bonus critical hit damage while Stim Boost is active from 20% to 15%.
  
• The Tactical “Acid Lash” no longer improves the damage of Acid Blade.
  
• Increased the duration of the Advanced Stealth mod effect from 4 to 6 seconds.
  
• Increased the duration of the Tactical Critical / Upper Critical mod effect from 4 to 6 seconds.
  
• Increased the damage reduction per stack from the Defensive Stance mod from 3% to 5%.
  
• The Best Defense mod now adds a life steal component to Crippling Slice / Shank Shot.
  
• Increased the movement speed bonus granted by Quick Countermeasures from 50% to 100%.
  

 

Sniper / Gunslinger

Marksmanship / Sharpshooter

• Target Acquired / Illegal Mods now generates a charge of Laze Target / Smuggler’s Luck whenever it is activated.
  
• Lazer Focus / Lucky Thoughts no longer relies on critically hitting the target to lower the cooldown on Laze Target / Smuggler’s Luck but instead has a 50% chance to do so whenever dealing damage.
  

 

Mercenary / Commando

• Bodyguard / Combat Medic
  
• Increased the healing done by Rapid Scan, Emergency Scan, Progressive Scan, Kolto Missile and Kolto Pods by 2%.
  
• Increased the critical healing bonus given by Warden from 5% to 10%.
  
• Increased the healing bonus given by Integrated Scanning mod from 3% to 5%.
  
• Increased the critical chance bonus to Healing Scan from Critical Scanning mod from 5% to 10%.
  

 

Powertech / Advanced Prototype

Advanced Prototype

• Magnetic Blast / Tactical Surge damage reduced by 14%.
  
• Power Burst / High Yield Explosives mod stacks damage bonus reduced to 4% per stack down from 5% per stack. (total of 16% damage bonus to thermal det down from 20%).
  
• Serrated Blades damage reduced to 5% down from 15%. (combined into prototype rail)
  
• Blood Tracker / Triumph damage increase to bleeding targets is reduced to 3% down from 5%.
  
• Lingering Heat / Superheated Cells damage reduced by 50%.
  
• New Tactical: Powered Detonator (Burst)
  
  Thermal Detonator remains dormant on the target for 12 seconds, and can be detonated by Magnetic Blast, Energy Burst or Rail Shot. Depending on which is used, a different effect is applied.
  
  
  Magnetic Blast: Slows the target by 50% for 10 seconds.
  
  
  Energy Burst: The cooldown of Rocket Punch is reset and your next Rocket Punch costs no heat.
  
  
  Rail Shot: Your next Shoulder Cannon missile deals 20% more damage.

  
  

 

Pyrotech / Plasmatech

• Charged Gauntlet's / Hyper Assault Cell’s critical damage bonus for Searing Wave, Flaming Fist, Scorch, and Immolate is now 10% down from 15%.
  
• Reduced the damage bonus given from Burnout to Immolate / Plasma Flare from 40% to 30%.
  

 

Sorcerer / Sage

Corruption / Seer

• Increasing the healing given by Penetrating Darkness / Clairvoyance to Renewal and Resurgence / Rejuvenate from 10% to 15%.
  
• Dark Heal / Benevolence now gains a 60% healing increase up from 50% from Dark Concentration / Altruism.
  
• Each stack of Corrupted Bastion / Resurging Power increases the healing done by Dark Heal / Benevolence, Rally / Deliverance, Dark Infusion / Keeper of the Peace by 5% per stack up from 3% per stack.
  

 

Madness / Balance

• New Tactical: Killing Field (AOE)
  
• Death Field slows targets it affects by 50%. Force Storm deals 15% more damage to slowed targets.
  

• 
  
  • Disintegration - Death Field and Death Brand grant Vitiate's Malice, giving Force Lightning 20% Lifesteal for 12 seconds.
    
  • Force Horrors - Increase periodic damage from 15% to 20%.
    
  • Lightning Barrage - Force Lightning reduced damage changed to -20% from -25%.
    
  • Tempest of Rho - Correctly applies 50% chance for Force Lightning to trigger periodic effects down from 75%
    

 

Lightning / Telekinesis

• Reverberating Force - Critical hit damage bonus has been reduced to 12% down from 15%.
  
• Thundering Blast - Second arc of damage deals 20% of Turbulence's damage down from 25%.
  
• Storm watch damage decreased by 4%
  
• Halted Offensive cast time increased from 2.5 seconds to 3.0 seconds. Alacrity still affects cast time.
  
• Decrease Halted Offensive damage by 15%.
  
• Convection - Thundering Blast grants Reserved Darkness, making Dark Heal an instant cast and increasing its healing by 30%. Stacks up to 2 times.
  

 

 

Assassin/ Shadow

Deception / Infiltration

• The damage done by the Awakened Flame tactical has been increased by 10%.
  
• Changed Severing Slash to additionally grant damage reduction per target hit.
  
• Redesigned "May Cause Injury" Tactical to grant the AOE version of Discharge more often. It now reads:
  Gaining a stack of Voltage / Clairvoyance causes your next Discharge / Force Breach to arc to multiple targets.
  

 

Hatred / Serenity

• Changed the Two Time Trouble tactical so that it can no longer tick from Saber Strike damage.
  
• Fulguration / Rebounding Force now restores 5 Force when Lightning Charge / Force Technique deals damage, up from 3.
  
• Increased the damage bonus given by Pervasive Death / Pervasive Balance to Death Field / Force in Balance from 10% to 15%.
  
• Hungering Force / Longing Force now additionally grants a critical hit damage bonus of 5%.
  
• Increased lifesteal amount from Severing Slash from 25% to 50%
  

 

Darkness / Kinetic Combat

• Changed the Severing Slash effect for Darkness to root its target for 2 seconds, followed by a 3 second slow. Severing Slash no longer grants damage reduction.
  

 

 

We’re looking forward to your feedback! As Jackie mentioned, we’ll have more details to share about 7.1.1 in general soon!

 

-Chris

 

 

I appreciate what you are trying to do here. I am speaking as someone interested PVE operations perspective. I agree with what many others have said regarding "Balanced not being the same as Equal." I believe that not every class should have equal DPS output. I think each class should excel at some things and be less optimal at others. The point of balance should be to make every class is viable in all operations and that some might be slightly better for some and not others. These Yin and Yang tradeoffs are what give classes their feel and personality.

 

To that end, can we please talk about DPS commandos? They are at the bottom of the DPS charts for both specs, and their added utility does not compensate for this at all. Theory crafters and all the build guides out there don't even bother listing information for them. If you look up anything endgame related from BiS tacticals to crit diminishing returns point the information is all the same. "Do not play this spec!" Pre 7.0 they were near the bottom but functional, now they are worthless. Can we please bring them up from T-ball to at least minor league?

the extra 10% on hatred assassin proc rate for the tactical will not save the class. Won't have recklessness up on time, no eradicate reset > no buff > no damage > hefty dps loss and the class will simply vanish from PVE content. The force management was never really fun because it's not even a choice between burst vs sustainability - it's just a choice between dealing damage or hitting something with a wet noodle. It's a failed design as is. recklessness as a proc based cooldown ability should simply not be a mandatory part of the rotation if you want a smooth rotation. It's not just about numbers, it's about having something to play that feels fun. You just replaced using one basic attack with another basic attack and increasing the luck necessary just to keep your eradicate up. And what have we gained because of that? Nothing. If the DPS was too harsh, then a nerf to the damage triggered by the tactical would've been an easy solution. But I don't even see what the point of this spec is supposed to do in pve content.

Please do not increase lightning sorcerer cast time for Halted Offensive!

 

1. the cast time is already insanely long at 2.5 seconds; I was in operation last night and things were dying before it finished casting.

2. lightning socrerer already got hit with the nerf bat from 6.x; it's not even close to the top parsing combat styles any more... it doesn't need nerfing.

 

And on top of that you say you're reducing the damage on top of making the cast time longer.

I'm sorry but you can't claim QoL improvements and then make cast times longer AND reduce damage.

 

You said these were meant to be Quality of Life IMPROVEMENTS

Making cast times longer only makes the likelyhood of a critter dying before the end of the cast more likely.

This is NOT an improvement.

 

Don't hardcast Halted Offense, use it with the instant proc. That was always the intention of the ability, and that's why they're increasing the cast time.

Hi all!

 

First of all, I wanted to thank you again for all your feedback. We're reading all of it and we really appreciated the well thought out posts.

 

Regarding Hatred, the spec has just one singular problem for the nim ops - losing Maliciousness over smallest period of downtime, be it due to safe play or unavoidable mechanics. Tyrans Simplification? Maliciousness lost. Brontes Hand pushed in burn? Maliciousness lost. Etc etc etc.

 

This is the only reason why class is permastuck as cozy parsing meme spec and not an actual universally viable dps class. These changes just replace "cozy parsing spec" with "clunky parsing spec".

 

If you want class to be playable in actual ops, you need to keep amount of TTT procs for new rotation, which can be acquired with a 100% proc chance on Leeching and at least 66,6% on Thrash. And duration of Maliciousness needs to be increased to allow retaining the damage buff through enforced downtime.