"This game is new" isnt an accept excuse for the games problems

I agree with most of your point however this one stood out to me. No SWTOR isnt amazing but its a perspective thing. We have played so many MMO's over the years we act negatively to all new game launches if they dont stack up to our favorite current game. We are incapable of waiting to see what anything becomes anymore because we are all getting more and more trapped into the instant gratification mindset.

Do you know why Oldsmobile went out of business?
One word, "crap".

And i don't have to be an engineer to know it either.

I'm just ganna go ahead and poke holes in the OP because I'm bored.


1: Many movies are in fact incomplete when they go to theaters. Many scenes are cut out to make the movie shorter, which is then sold in extended editions for more money when put onto DvD/Bluray.

2: Many people buy cars without parts, including engines to work on them as a hobby.

I just wanted to point that out ^_^

Next, no MMO is EVER complete. There will always be bugs, and always more content to come until the game shuts down.

I believe this game has more than enough excuses to be incomplete or buggy. BW is new to the MMO scene. The fact that they went straight from RPGs to AAA MMOs is a daunting task they undertook. And I think they did quite well.

People need to understood this game wasn't made to be the next big MMO. BW didn't make the game with "Lets get 13 million subs and beat WoW" in mind. The game was created to continue the KOTOR story line. Not to beat every MMO out there.

SWTOR is meant for the Star Wars fans, the people who love the Star Wars story, universe, etc...

I'm guessing... (my opinion) on why BW made this game a MMO instead of an RPG is because:

1: They wanted to make money. Just like any sensible company. And MMOs can be a huge profit.

2: They wanted to bring KOTOR fans together. Which I believe they did by adding all the voice acting and such, successfully creating a good storyline.


Now, people need to understand they're working on patches. It's not like the devs are sitting around laughing at people's problems with the game. It's holiday season right now, BW employees have lives to and most are probably with family and friends. The release date was horrible, probably a ploy by EA to make more money. But the point is they're working on fixes, and that doesn't mean every bug will be fixed in the next 5 minutes. You all need to learn some patience and wait. Unsub if you're unhappy with the game's state and come back in a couple months.

Actually it was incorporated into the rest of GM because it lost its distinction as a brand. The heads of GM were at fault, not the engineers. Oldsmobile lost its way which in conjunction to cost cutting measures and re-badgeing (a major cost cutting tactic no longer employed to the same extent by GM)

It really is a shame considering how awesome the late 60s and early 70s cutlasses, 442s, and Hurst 442s were.

So your analogy is "one word, crap."

There are a whole slew of reasons why oldsmobile is no longer around, and it all stems from how far gm executives had there heads up their asses. Then GM shows off the CTS-V coupe, ZR1, ZL1, and the volt and you can see that their engineers can build great cars, so long as the higher ups will let them. Just wish they would build the Ciel.

Define incomplete product

You spout it alot in your retort but don't even define what you consider to be an incomplete product.

To me this is a VERY complete product with regards to an MMO, so I am not quite sure what you expect.

Go back and play every MMO that has been created in the last 8yrs at their inception if it was possible and advise me on whether you consider them incomplete or not when they were released.

And besides its a ridiculous statement anyway, as by its very nature an MMORPG is never 'complete' its always being updated.

Don't you see what you are doing, you are defining a games completeness based on a game which has been updated and polished over 10+yrs

Thats like me complaining that a singleplayer game doesn't have the same content as one released 4yrs ago which now has 5 addon packs, and then complaining that they released an 'INCOMPLETE PRODUCT'

Do you not see yourself saying this? Its so black and white to me, its so infuriating that others are completely blind to it

Maybe we are just talking past each other. I'm not saying that an MMO should have everything it will ever have at launch. That goes against everything an MMO is. I am saying that what's in there should work. I am agreeing with the OP that you cannot hide behind the fact that MMOs take a huge ammount of time and resources to develop and claim that it's ok to ship an incomplete product.

The fact that other MMOs have done this in the past is completely irrelevant. Two wrongs still don't make a right.

So, my definition of incomplete here is that the stuff that is in there should be working. Currently, combat is not working with the castbars not synching with their animations. Taris still crashes for a lot of people. There are plenty of bugs in the crafting system (try crafting on alts and switching between them and see what happens). Lips often do not move in cut-scenes.... etc.

None of these are game-breaking in the sence that I believe they can be fixed quite soon and until then I can enjoy the game. My whole point is that you shouldn't be making excuses for shipping a buggy product. Bioware isn't doing this either, they are taking responsibility and trying to fix it, it's the fans that get behind it.

I think a correct attitude is: Yes, it is buggy in several areas, and no it shouldn't be, they should be fixing it soon.

I'll restate, that I am enjoying the game, and I will be staying for a while just because I enjoy the stories so much. I can accept that there are bugs, but I will never defend them.

Maybe we are just talking past each other. I'm not saying that an MMO should have everything it will ever have at launch. That goes against everything an MMO is. I am saying that what's in there should work. I am agreeing with the OP that you cannot hide behind the fact that MMOs take a huge ammount of time and resources to develop and claim that it's ok to ship an incomplete product.

In the early years of the MMO industry, from roughly 1997 to 2001, there were a few big MMOs that had active player populations. By the time we started ArenaNet in the summer of 2000, we knew of at least eighty MMOs that were in development. Based on the success of UO and EQ, publishers were reviewing their portfolios and planning to migrate their existing game franchises to the online world, where they believed they could adopt a subscription model and "make bank". Clearly, it did not work out that way. As more MMOs came into the market, two things changed. First, players now had a choice about which game they would play, and as a result their expectations for polish, content quantity, and service increased substantially. Second, and perhaps more telling for the future of the industry, it became clear that the subscription model forced players to choose a single game, rather than playing many different games.

Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true – you know it, and they know it. Gamers may buy the argument that your MMO requires a subscription fee, if you can tell them what they are getting for their money. This is the legacy of games like Guild Wars, Maple Story, and Silkroad Online, all of which introduced new business models into the MMO genre and were quite successful. The subscription model is still perfectly viable, but the pain threshold is very low now. It's no secret that gamers don't want to pay a subscription fee. If you can convince them that your game offers enough value to justify it, more power to you! But be prepared to defend your decision, often and loudly, and back it up over the lifetime of your game.

Let me preface this by saying this isnt a post trashing the game or complaining. This is a post directed at those who that throw around ridiculous and unfounded excuses at the slightest criticism(constructive or not) about this game.

The fact that this game is new or just came out is not an excuse for any flaws or missing features.

Would you go see a movie that was only 70% complete and had no ending, just because its 'new' ?
Would you buy a car with no engine? I guess thats fine because its new.

Bioware knew full well the types of features and content modern MMOs have. They seemingly had plenty of time and resources to develop this game. Players thinking about purchasing or continuing to play this game are completely justified in expecting that any missing content or features should have been present at launch. Moreover, most of them are complaining because they WANT to like the game and continuing playing, it is simply difficult to justify paying a monthly fee or playing a game you know is lacking fundamental features.

Futhermore the fact that WoW or any other MMO did not have "X feature" when it was released is not any better an excuse. This game is not competing with WoW of 2005, it is competing with the WoW(and other MMOs) of today. In 2005 MMOs were more primative, and less fleshed out, it was acceptable and common to lack certain features, it is however NOT acceptable today.