Random question though and this was bugging me. I know lightsabers cant be used underwater because theyre electrical, but what if you turn on the saber out of water and dip a portion of the blade in water? Does the blade stop where it touches the water and just boil it? Or would the blade continue in as far as it goes because its so hot?

Lightsabers aren't electrical. (unless you talk about hilt itself, but this can be easily water-sealed).

Lightsabers CAN be used under water, but not all of them (eg. Obi-Wan lightsaber got broken while getting into water in episode 1)

If you will point saber into water from above - it'll be exactly the same what would happen if you'd put red-hot metal into water. Liquid will evaporate.

Wouldn't Meetra Surik count? She followed Revan in the mandalorian war but stopped short of becoming sith.

No, a dark Jedi is a Jedi that has fallen to the dark side, she never fell to the dark side, in fact she was one of few Jedi to not turn to the dark side after the Mandalorian Wars, and was the only Jedi left in the galaxy when Kreia killed the Jedi Masters on Dantooine, she rebuilt the Order and probably could've been the Grand Master of the order if not for her seeking Revan.

I was hoping that someone would site something from the book 'Shatterpoint'....

I'm not sure about juyo, but mace did create and use the vaapad lightsaber system that apparently even yoda could not master....This did bring him very close to the darkside as everytime he used it he had to hold back.

Also if no one in this thread has read Shatterpoint it's probably one of the best Star Wars novels imo...

I'd say Mace was overall light, but made some Darkside choices/actions, like when he was going to kill Sidious.

In SWTOR logic:

LSpoints 10,000 - DSpoints 1,000 = LS 9,000.

Mace's Light out-weighted his Dark, therefore he is Light.

Anakin was not a Dark Jedi he was SITH... as soon as he helped kill Mace Windu he was given the Title LORD Vader (Darth)

Dark Jedi was some one like Set Harnrath from the Darth Bane books...

Read them and you see the differences between the two.. Dark Jedi are selfish and think only about self preservation and material wealth and powers.#

Sith think about domination and total power over the Jedi and republic!

Just read the comment on Mace Windu and "Shatterpoint"

That is a great book, but the Knights Of The Old Republic (cant rember if it was one or 2) has something in there saying Vaapad is a form used by Jedi back then like thousands of years before Mace was meant to have INVENTED it!

RUINED THE LORE AND CONTINUITY!!!

Shaft...I mean Mace was barely light, but he was still sitting on the light side. Vaapad was meant to use emotion, enjoy the fight, it was akilling form etc etc.....not exactly what Jedi strived for. I believe in one book he even comments on this to Obi-Wan saying he considers him more of a lightsaber master than him because Obi-Wan mastered Soresu instead of a killing form and that Vaapad was Mace's answer to his own weakness (the darkness within him).

So Mace had anger, trust, and I might even say control issues. To be honest, I don't think he ever should have been on the council. Yes he made good decisions sometimes, but he made bad ones too and some of those were perpetuated by his emotions. He didn't uphold the code very well and all but threw out the "There is no emotion, there is peace" by acting out his emotions rather than having a clear and coherent thought. He's a LOT like Anakin. He was one the worst examples of what a jedi should be, but he never actually fell or started down the dark side. for a TOR comparison I'd say he'd be like 6000 LS and 5000 DS....putting him at Light I....MAYBE Light II, but I can't see him much higher than that. Yoda and Obi-Wan would be sitting at Light IV or V.

Just read the comment on Mace Windu and "Shatterpoint"

 

That is a great book, but the Knights Of The Old Republic (cant rember if it was one or 2) has something in there saying Vaapad is a form used by Jedi back then like thousands of years before Mace was meant to have INVENTED it!

 

RUINED THE LORE AND CONTINUITY!!!

No, KOTOR 2 specifically uses Juyo, the original Form VII. Mace Windu took Juyo and improved upon it when he created Vaapad. Vaapad is the alternate Form VII, kinda like Form V's Shien/Djem So

Revan

Yes yes he was "Darth Revan" but that was before memory wipe, then new personality where he returns as Light or Jedi. He later regains his Darker sides memories and if you see him ingame he uses both Light and Dark.

To me a Dark Jedi is a Jedi that uses his emotions but unlike Sith are not driven by them.

Wouldn't Meetra Surik count? She followed Revan in the mandalorian war but stopped short of becoming sith.

Surik never fell to the Dark Side, so she does not count.

So... Mace Windu would become Dark Lord of the Republic?

I doubt Mace would have attempted to keep control for any length of time. If he and the other Masters had been successful at arresting Palpatine, then he most likely would have pushed hard to convince the Senate to select a new Chancellor as quickly as possible. The Jedi Council would not want to rule the Republic.

I was hoping that someone would site something from the book 'Shatterpoint'....

I don't recall much of Shatterpoint anymore, except that it was one hell of a novel.

I don't really think there would be any real consequences. The guy was a Sith Lord, nobody has seemed to care about due process when it comes to Sith before, why would they now?

And how, exactly, do we know that there weren't laws in place allowing the Jedi Order to arrest and detain Sith, wherever they might be found? If there wasn't such a law, there should have been, considering the Jedi Order was the only official protection the Republic had, and due to the numerous historical examples of the Sith presenting imminent, existentialist threats to the Republic.

And how, exactly, do we know that there weren't laws in place allowing the Jedi Order to arrest and detain Sith, wherever they might be found? If there wasn't such a law, there should have been, considering the Jedi Order was the only official protection the Republic had, and due to the numerous historical examples of the Sith presenting imminent, existentialist threats to the Republic.

Well yeah, that was my point. If Mace had killed Palpatine, I don't think anyone would be to pissed about that if Mace just said "He was a Sith Lord, check out all the Sith stuff in his office. Plus that whole obvious corruption thing, did I mention I'm Mace Windu?"

I honestly think that if Mace had killed Palpatine on the spot, he would not suffer any real consequences for it beyond a scolding from other Jedi. And even that seems unlikely as Jedi are well known for killing Sith, mainly because Sith don't surrender, but still. Killing Sith is kind of their thing.

EDIT: Fun fact that has nothing to do with this, Mace Windu wields a purple saber because purple is Samuel L. Jackson's favourite colour and he specifically asked George Lucas for it. So we can thank Sam himself for those sweet purple sabers.

Bonus points if you know what was engraved on the hilt.

After reading everyones post in this thread, here my two cents to what yall said!

All Dark Jedi go Sith, with the exception (thus far) with Q.Voss. I think the only reason he didn't was due to his family. It kept him grounded. With a birth of a child, your more focused on your childs well fare. I.E. Darth Vader after seeing his child Luke suffering under Darth Sidious's force lighting. He was only then moved to act against him. Remember the whole reason why Anakin went dark was to save his family. He only went "full" Sith after his duel with O. Kenobi. And the distruction of his family as told by his master. "give them something to crave, and then take it away" thats the power of the dark side of the force. (I based this also off the Return of the Sith game).

Back to topic tho:

Mace Windu should have never been on the counsel, I agree. He was too close to the dark side. Sora Bulq who co-created Vaapad with M. Windu fell to the dark side. Now here's where I go crazy. Mace Windu fell to the dark side during the fight with Darth Sidious. If you watch the movie (IMO) you see it in his face. The next thing he says is "he's too powerful to stay alive". More convo yadda yadda yadda, and then he attempts to swing at Lord Sidious. And Anakin stops him by chopping off his hand (his signiture move BTW). Its my feeling and most people that this whole scene was staged by Darth Sidious. I feel he had a back up plan too. If Anakin didnt show up Mace Windu would be the next apprentice. Its not that far fetched either. Look at all the people who fell before Lord Sidious already. Mace was already there he just needed a little nudge, if you will.

thats it for me bye.

 

All Dark Jedi go Sith, with the exception (thus far) with Q.Voss. I think the only reason he didn't was due to his family.

Not only this. In two times in the comics, he uses some unusal meditation form in midst of battle to come over his dark side (not only against Sora Bulq, but also Volffe Karkko). In the second battle with Bulq, Aayla and Tholme lead him mentally back tho light side. So it is his dedication to introspection (seen many times in the Vos-Comics, also when he struggles to survive order 66) together with his strong bonds to his teacher and pupil. Family plays a role, but more because he choses it over the Jedi way, which he knows he can't properly follow. But he is also leaving the Jedi because of regret over some of his deeds.

title says it all.

If not than are there any other examples of such?

racist!!!

The topic of Light/dark has been debated for years. To be fair, it's safe to call Mace Windu a "Gray Jedi" he walks in the Light, but it not above using whatever means necessary to achieve his goal.

As mentioned his lightsaber form brings him dangerously close to using DS powers, but it also made him quite adept.

It is also debatable whether or not he was a Teras Kasi Master (most would probably say no, but he has been known to use TKM type techniques), this is an offensive form of martial arts designed to fight Jedi.

In a time where the Sith are extinct, there is really no reason why Mace Windu should know these things, UNLESS the Order would train certain members in these arts in case there was future need for them. It certainly stands to reason that they would not have allowed him to train them if they didn't think it might be useful.

We all know the real world isn't always Light and Dark, or Good and Evil.... there are many lines, fences, shades of gray, DMZ's whatever you want to call it, and many of us have to operate in those areas.

He was pretty close to falling. He'd decided to commit treason and circumvent the laws of the Republic by assaulting the Supreme Chancellor and--if necessary--seizing control of the Senate itself. Due process, Windu says? What's that? If Skywalker hadn't stopped Windu, it's likely Windu would have killed Palpatine outright because he simply couldn't be bothered to do things right. That sort of shoddy moral justification is exactly what leads people astray.

 

Palpatine would have won either way. If he were killed by Windu, the Jedi would have simply become the very thing they were trying to fight.

Finally someone who sees through the looking glass like I do....

THANK YOU!!

Come on, it's Palpatine.

YES HE DESERVES TO DIE, AND I HOPE HE BURNS IN HELL!- Mace Windu

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy My brothers. And you will know My name is the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon thee. - Mace Windu

Come on, it's Palpatine.

 

YES HE DESERVES TO DIE, AND I HOPE HE BURNS IN HELL!- Mace Windu

 

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy My brothers. And you will know My name is the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon thee. - Mace Windu

bahaha... for a long time I loved to use the joke:

"now I want you to reach into that bag, and get out my lightsaber"

"which one is yours?"

"It's the one that says Bad Muther******"

The Jedi have the unenviable position of having to balance the laws of the Republic and the will of the Force, but I have a feeling that when these two things conflict and cannot be reconciled, they'll always put the will of the Force first. That's how the Jedi roll.

So yeah. I don't think Mace was gonna fall for doing in Palpatine, as he didn't kill him in the heat of the moment - he stopped what he was doing, thought about it, and realised he had no choice. Acting without emotion, serenely and knowledgably. That's the Jedi Code, baby. He was about to break the law, sure, but that's not quite the same thing.

Mace Windu is not a Dark Jedi in my opinion.

That said, Mace's decision to kill Palpatine instead of taking him in during Episode III was a Dark Side decision. This was the culmination of the Palpatine's manipulation, as this convinced Anakin that there was no real difference between the Jedi and the Sith, that the Jedi talked the talk but didn't walk the walk. But unlike the Jedi, Palpatine's Sith teachings could help him to save his wife....

Notice that Windu uses the same excuse for trying to kill Palpatine as Palpatine gives for why Anakin needed to kill Dooku earlier in the movie: "He was/is too dangerous to be left alive." This is no doubt intentional on Lucas's part, demonstrating how Anakin could come to view the Jedi as hypocrites. This is also clearly indicative of Dark Side thinking, as the Light Side values life above all else and demands that violence and killing be absolute last resorts only.

Granted, when Anakin stood by as Palpatine killed Windu and yelled "UNLIMITED POWER!!!" that was also Dark Side. The Light Side course of action would have been to prevent Windu from killing the seemingly unarmed Palpatine, then cutting off Palpatine's hands to prevent him from killing Windu, and then bringing Palpatine in to the authorities. No one said following the Light was easy!

All that said, this is still controversial among fans, as they debate back and forth about whether Windu's actions were justified. Even so, it is my impression is that exposing Palpatine by taking him to the authorities would have done more good in the long-run then merely killing him, as this might have prevented Anakin's fall and revealed Palpatine's true colors to the greater galaxy.

Edit: I don't think that Windu would have "fallen" if he had killed Palpatine, and it is possible that it was "the Will of The Force" to kill Palpatine, since The Force has greater knowledge than any one individual. But it certainly wasn't the will of the Light Side, and thus still qualifies as a Dark Side decision.

Personally, i think the Will of The Force is expressed through Anakin throughout the story. Even Anakin's becoming Vader and killing off the Jedi could be viewed as necessary to bringing about balance, as the Jedi in their current form were too extreme in condemning love and all emotion, something that would be corrected in Luke Skywalker's reborn order. Thus, with both the Sith and the Jedi destroyed, the thousands-of-years-old conflict between them was ended, The Force achieved "balance," and Luke was able to bring about a reasonable reconciliation between peace, passion, and emotion in the form of the New Jedi Order.