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BH/trooper getting boned in 1.2


radbass

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Let's be clear. Pyrotech is also the only tree that has to use heat to proc the tree's heat venting mechanic. That alone is grounds for a fix. Oh, guess what, you have to use 32 heat at a chance to dissipate 8 heat.

 

Stool cory, bioware.

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that, im on the fence about. i feel that any expectation to be both powerful AND durable is unrealistic. tanks require dps to play their role, but dps should be avoiding situations where they take damage. a typical player should not be able to best 2 typical players.

 

Arsenal/Gunnery is *was* powerful but has no durability at all. Now we have less.

 

Maybe if they increased the timer on the TM buffed shield from 15 seconds to something like 25 while reducing the damage THAT would encourage a more active rotation.

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it is a very big deal.

 

aside from the fact that this change was not even necessary, PPA was a HUGE source of heat management for pyrotechs. with this change, we will only be able to vent heat effectively every 6 seconds, which means the overall DPS output is nerfed due to resource management.

 

and you make it seem like we can just proc 3 Rail Shot resets on command. IT IS A ~4% CHANCE! to do decent damage with those 3 Rail Shots, they need to crit. assuming you have 40% crit, the chance of you getting 3 resets AND 3 crits is .35%. LESS THAN 1% CHANCE!

 

now, to get 3 Rail Shot resets would take 6 GCDs to complete the combo. all of these abilities would need to crit to be as devastating as many players claim them to be. the chance of that happening, again assuming 40% crit, is a .4% chance. AGAIN, LESS THAN 1% CHANCE!

 

the nerf to pyrotech is because of the above scenario. i have been playing pyrotech for a few months now, and i have never gotten 3 resets in a row. bioware had actually balanced the reset chances quite well. with 1.2, theyre implementing an all encompassing nerf to the pyrotech tree. if they really wanted to try to prevent the perfect RNG outcome, they should have just decreased the PPA proc rates a bit.

 

this nerf is because of the massive amount of QQ about pyrotech that was coming to the forums. the same thing that happened to operatives is happening to pyrotechs. bioware has made it clear they dont make significant class changes based on actual statistics. they make them based on whether or not the majority of their customers want to have a class nerfed

 

I don't know about all that. I played Arsenal up to BM, then switched to Pyro - because I was sick of all the TM hate and being shut down by constant INTs.

 

That said, I primarily PvP and personally I use Rapid Shots a lot. Heat management is an issue, but I might do a hard vent once or twice per match. I basically treat rapid shots like a free constant DOT. Works for me, might not suit everyone else.

 

I do agree that the nerf to Pyro's was just mean spirited.

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its a heat management issue. pyrotech has HORRIBLE heat management, and the free rail shots are the only way around that.

 

You only have ammo problems if you constantly spam ion pulse or use incendiary rounds when your ammo is too low. Seriously, I get 3 procs in a row quite often imo, and not only does these HiB are hitting like a truck when they crit, they also don't cost ammo. IT IS OP. Depending on luck, with the current metagame, either you completely ROFLSTOMP someone or you just use ion pulse / stockstrike / hammer shot 'till they die. That tree needed to be looked at, it's too strong in the current making, because even when it dosen't proc, you'd still win most 1v1s.

 

Deal with the nerf. Like someone else said, you'll have a GREATER chance to get 2 HiB in a row than before. When it procs, time to slow down with the ion pulse / stockstrike spamspam. The only reason you end up out of ammo is because you spam ion pulse like an idiot and it dosen't proc. That's it. Stop spamming.

 

For example, when you only have 3/12 ammo and you DECIDE to use ion pulse to MAYBE get a free HiB proc, you DECIDE that if you're not lucky, you'll end up 1/12 ammo. Now after 1.2, it will remove ion pulse spamspamspamspam, and thruthfully, it was completely dumb to begin with.

 

Just do some maths : With adrenals, relic, +25% crit buff, getting 3 procs in a row (4 HiBs (4k+ crit) + incendiary DoTs + assault plastique (4k crit) + SS (2.5k crit) + 2 IPs (2k crit)) = approx. 25k + damage in approx. 7 GCD. OP.

 

People here are looking at this like it's completely gonna kill the spec. It's not.

Edited by Faat
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they are also increasing the channel time for tracer and i think i read that they are adding a short cooldown to "encourage more diversity in the playstyle" or some bs.

 

my point exactly is that the arsenal tree still requires the spamming of tracer. which means a 10% tracer nerf is a 10% nerf to the entire spec.

 

Spamming is an illusion because it's how you open a target. If you actually think about it, it is really only 4 dmg abilities out of 8-9 in the full cycle; TMx4, unload x2, HSM, FM, rocket punch, and flamethrower (don't know first hand...heard speculation that it could be useful at high stats, given the right situation).

 

Arsenal being the only AC that requires such a pre-load investment from one single ability is why it has such a bad rep...not to mention the pre-patch animation.

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all you QQing powertechs/vanguards should switch out of pyro/assualt. been switching around from 23/16/2 to 10/31/0 and settled on an 8/31/2 full tactics using ion cell and im having a lot of success with it atm. high ammo efficiency with fire pulse into stockstrike, HiB wont have it's cooldown reset but it will crit almost every time due to combat tactics. shock absorbers is a must for pvp seeing how often you get stunned. and with ion cell my dmg mitigation goes up considerably and sure i lose 8% to elemental and internal dmg, but 2 of your biggest hitting abilities are High Impact Bolt and Stockstrike and are kinetic. best part is 1.2 is giving me a slight buff.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801GoMZMsrrobfkdsZb.1

Edited by baldilocks
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Really Sorc nerf isn't a nerf? So if we took your Aimed Shot or whatever ability you use every 10 seconds or so and changed it from casting in 3.5 seconds to 7 seconds it wouldnt be a nerf?

 

If anyone would understand how bad a nerf the sorc nerf is it should be a Sniper who knows how often people gte out of range when casting a long cast ability.

 

Now add to that that everyone is trying to kill the Sorc..of yea they are trying to kill you the sniper to shut down your DPS too.. but take that and like quadrouple. Everyone is hunting Sorcs and everyone has interupts and some classes have liek 4-5 interupts.

 

How bad is making Aimed Shot take 7 seconds to cast instead of 3.5?

 

If you think Sorcs are crying about the bug fix you didnt read teh patch notes.

 

 

No it's not a nerf it's called rebalancing.

 

 

Sound familiar? Which is exactly what everyone said to concealments and scrappers.

Edited by Ahebish
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first off, i am NOT QQing, because i dont even play this class. i play a sniper and an assassin.

 

heres my logic

 

1: mercs spam tracer for a reason. it is the core mechanic of their arsenal tree and they are FORCED to use it to be effective. the tracer missile debuff will make the entire arsenal tree as worthless as powertechs advanced prototype. same for vanguard grav shots.

 

2: mercs are the only class getting a true healing nerf. people cry about a sorc nerf, but sorc are not being nerfed. they are fixing a bug and removing an exploit. that is NOT a nerf. merc/commando on the other hand, are receiving effectively at least a 25% healing nerf.

 

3: as stated before, advanced prototype (powertech/vanguard melee tree) is already worthless

 

4: the core mechanic of the pyrotech tree is rapid deployment of railshot (or pub equivalent). by placing a hard cooldown on this mechanic, they have made the tree essentially useless because without the ability to spam free railshots, the class has terrible heat management and cant put out any significant damage without maxing out their heat

 

 

essentially, if you are playing anything other than a powertech/vanguard tank, you're class is getting screwed over.

 

It will kill VG / PT who wanted to be competitive DPS wise, which is why I have 3 50's atm, I just rotate to playing the least nerfed one o.O.

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they are also increasing the channel time for tracer and i think i read that they are adding a short cooldown to "encourage more diversity in the playstyle" or some bs.

 

my point exactly is that the arsenal tree still requires the spamming of tracer. which means a 10% tracer nerf is a 10% nerf to the entire spec.

 

Wrong. healers are getting nerfed for sure. The only change to gunnery/arsenal will be GRAV ROUND/ TM getting a 10% damage reduc. The overall spec will be so much more powerful damage wise for the following reasons:

 

- Demolition round damage will be significantly increased.

- Grav round/ TM will cost the same and have the same activation time due to changes in the tree itself.

- Curtain of fire (procs instant CD of Full auto/ unload with 30% damage buff) will now proc around 70% as opposed to 30%.

 

Curtain of fire and the imp equivalent are the best damge dealer in the whole tree. Demo round/ heat seekers hit about 20% harder than GR/TM already.

 

Basically this only nerfs people who are terrible at playing the class and only spam TM and GR to do damage instead of actually working the class mechanics. Class is gonna be beast mode after this update.

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You only have ammo problems if you constantly spam ion pulse or use incendiary rounds when your ammo is too low. Seriously, I get 3 procs in a row quite often imo, and not only does these HiB are hitting like a truck when they crit, they also don't cost ammo. IT IS OP. Depending on luck, with the current metagame, either you completely ROFLSTOMP someone or you just use ion pulse / stockstrike / hammer shot 'till they die. That tree needed to be looked at, it's too strong in the current making, because even when it dosen't proc, you'd still win most 1v1s.

 

Deal with the nerf. Like someone else said, you'll have a GREATER chance to get 2 HiB in a row than before. When it procs, time to slow down with the ion pulse / stockstrike spamspam. The only reason you end up out of ammo is because you spam ion pulse like an idiot and it dosen't proc. That's it. Stop spamming.

 

For example, when you only have 3/12 ammo and you DECIDE to use ion pulse to MAYBE get a free HiB proc, you DECIDE that if you're not lucky, you'll end up 1/12 ammo. Now after 1.2, it will remove ion pulse spamspamspamspam, and thruthfully, it was completely dumb to begin with.

 

Just do some maths : With adrenals, relic, +25% crit buff, getting 3 procs in a row (4 HiBs (4k+ crit) + incendiary DoTs + assault plastique (4k crit) + SS (2.5k crit) + 2 IPs (2k crit)) = approx. 25k + damage in approx. 7 GCD. OP.

 

People here are looking at this like it's completely gonna kill the spec. It's not.

 

No game is supposed to be balanced around 1v1, Bro.

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I play heals as both a trooper and BH and although I sympathise with my DPS brethren the healing nerfs were not only uncalled for they were just flat out ignorant and dare I say much much more brutal then anyone of the DPS nerfs. So now your DPS is going to be meh and when you can't kill that mara/sent fast enough we (healers) are definately not going to be able to heal through the DPS.

 

Why did they even put these two classes in the game if they are hell bent on destroying them. The fact that they can't see the problem they are about to create is very very frightening and gives us a small glimpse of what the future holds for SWtoR.

 

No class is safe and when they pick the next class name out of a hat it will be butchered as well.

 

I seriously hope they have someone working there with their head on straight that see's what an enormous mistake gutting classes this early in the game is going to do for business.

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I'm retiring my BH after 1.2 goes live, and have already started a couple alts. I don't want to tank, and AP is still broken. I might be a notorious Pyro PT, but it doesn't mean I live longer than anyone else, or have that much more dps than others.

 

Why do I get good damage results on the charts? Because I never stop attacking, unless I'm dead or healing up. Most Pyros I have seen are the same, Pyro seems to attract a more proactive player. We don't sit around waiting for enemies to come to us, we go out and hunt.

 

Now when I go out there in 1.2, I'll have less damage, a lot more downtime due to heat problems, and still no real CC. And yet all my best abilities are close range. Yay I have heavy armour.. i just can't stop people hammering away on it.

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No game is supposed to be balanced around 1v1, Bro.

 

Because marauders who own 1v1, also own 4v4 and 8v8.

 

There are some classes that are better in a group than they are solo- but there aren't many classes that are great solo and suck in a group... in fact, if anything- marauders turn from gods to super gods in a group with a tank and a healer.

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the fact is that pyrotech got the same treatment that operative has received. the mood of the forums determines the next class to be nerfed.

 

i was against the operative nerfs, and im against these nerfs. even some of the sorc changes in this patch are unnecessary imho. the double proc cast reduction bug/exploit needed fixing, but that was about it.

 

i have not had the time to level a toon on PTS to sufficiently test any changes in 1.2, so it will be tough to determine the actual effects this nerf has on pyrotech

 

but the math is not really up for debate. bioware had two options to reduce the potential triple rail shot reset that seems to be the source of the nerfs.

 

1.) enforce a internal cooldown on the reset proc

2.) decrease the chance for the reset to proc.

 

option 2 would have yielded the same results (significant reduction in % chance for triple reset), yet they decided to fk the whole tree up and went with an internal cooldown.

 

pyrotech already has some of the worst resource management in the game, and depending on how 1.2 comes out arsenal may, unfortunately, actually be a more effective choice for spike dps in pvp because of the far more efficient heat management

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Sorry the OP has obviously never gone up against a good PT in pyro. There are 4 or 5 on my server who can kill me faster than i can get 2 instant casts off. There is no defending against it. Those PT's are always top damage in the matches I play vs. them, by a mile. A PT did 450k in a 4 and a half minute huttball.

 

As far as I can tell it is a very sllight nerf to an OP build.

 

I also play constantly with a vanguard who does not use this build and is one of my favorite people to group with. He does competitive damage has good livability and a ton of useful cc. But he does not come into a match and just faceroll everyone like PT's in a pyro build can.

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lol @ another thread talking about Arsenal mercs getting nerfed when they are REALLY GETTING BUFFED....

 

The only difference with Tracer Missile is that it will do 10% less damage. Same casting time, same heat cost. However, we will be able to use unload, arsenal mercs top dps skill at the moment, a LOT more often. And our top single hit skill, heatseeker missiles will hit 10% harder.

 

Honestly, I swear people only read the first 2 lines of the 1.2 changes and completely ignore the last 5 lines. I mean even mercs, the people who should KNOW the class mechanics and talents are thinking its a nerf. Any Merc that KNOWS THE CLASS will tell you they are getting a significant buff.

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Sorry the OP has obviously never gone up against a good PT in pyro. There are 4 or 5 on my server who can kill me faster than i can get 2 instant casts off. There is no defending against it. Those PT's are always top damage in the matches I play vs. them, by a mile. A PT did 450k in a 4 and a half minute huttball.

 

As far as I can tell it is a very sllight nerf to an OP build.

 

I also play constantly with a vanguard who does not use this build and is one of my favorite people to group with. He does competitive damage has good livability and a ton of useful cc. But he does not come into a match and just faceroll everyone like PT's in a pyro build can.

 

well this post is full of lies rofl. post a video or a screenshot of those warzones.

 

fyi, vanguard's have access to the same skills that powertechs do. assault = pyrotech

 

there is no class in the game that can kill in 2 GCDs. if you die that fast, the problem lies between the keyboard and the chair, not the game.

 

the pyrotech tree was not innately OP. an intelligent player, properly geared, proplery spec'd, and playing using smart tactics, can become a devastating force.

 

there are, and never were, overpowered classes in this game. not operatives (they were OP due to stacking of consumables, operatives should never have been nerfed after that). not sorcs (that exploit/bug needed fixing, that was it). not bounty hunters.

 

there are overpowered players. nerfing classes will not stop them from killing bads. they will adapt, and overcome. it doesnt mean its not annoying when the incessant QQ from terribads forces drastic changes in playstyle for no goddam reason

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Arsenal/Gunnery damage reduction buff from TM/Grav is also getting cut in half.

 

Because we weren't already glass cannons? Oh wait, now with more glass and less cannon.

 

For the love of all things Star Wars, we're not made of glass! We have heavy armor, off heals, a self heal CD (Which isn't great but it's still there, snipers don't get one unless specced for a lame one.), An energy shield CD, Passive defensive buff from Tracer/grav (getting nerfed, still there.) A ranged stun, a ranged CC, and two CD's for an insta-cast and a heat-free cast.

 

And coming in 1.2, orange armor *with* set bonuses transfering with mods, as well as an added augment spot! Don't feel your defense is quite up there, put some +defense augments in your Pvp gear!

 

If you feel like a glass cannon, it's cause you suck, I feel just fine on my Merc.

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first off, i am NOT QQing, because i dont even play this class. i play a sniper and an assassin.

 

heres my logic

 

1: mercs spam tracer for a reason. it is the core mechanic of their arsenal tree and they are FORCED to use it to be effective. the tracer missile debuff will make the entire arsenal tree as worthless as powertechs advanced prototype. same for vanguard grav shots.

 

2: mercs are the only class getting a true healing nerf. people cry about a sorc nerf, but sorc are not being nerfed. they are fixing a bug and removing an exploit. that is NOT a nerf. merc/commando on the other hand, are receiving effectively at least a 25% healing nerf.

 

3: as stated before, advanced prototype (powertech/vanguard melee tree) is already worthless

 

4: the core mechanic of the pyrotech tree is rapid deployment of railshot (or pub equivalent). by placing a hard cooldown on this mechanic, they have made the tree essentially useless because without the ability to spam free railshots, the class has terrible heat management and cant put out any significant damage without maxing out their heat

 

 

essentially, if you are playing anything other than a powertech/vanguard tank, you're class is getting screwed over.

 

Use it 3 times in 20secs is it? Then once evey 20 secs or betwen CDs. that was the intent. For 20% armor reduction which is a mere 5% dmg increase. It's not going to break you. The reason people hate it is because it is doing too much damage for a spammable filler attack. You don't even need HiB, demo round or +25% full auto when you can just spam grav round (don't know what BH versions are called).

 

And I hear multiple commandos can stack individual vortex stacks. Is this true? I sent a /bug asking if this was intentional, but got no reply.

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a 10% damage reduction to tracer missile is NOT the end of the world. Especially when we will be using unload a lot more often and Heatseeker Missiles is getting a 10% damage increase lol.

 

SO MANY people have no idea what they are talking about. I guess this is what happens when a game gets filled with WOW rejects?

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the fact is that pyrotech got the same treatment that operative has received. the mood of the forums determines the next class to be nerfed.

 

i was against the operative nerfs, and im against these nerfs. even some of the sorc changes in this patch are unnecessary imho. the double proc cast reduction bug/exploit needed fixing, but that was about it.

 

i have not had the time to level a toon on PTS to sufficiently test any changes in 1.2, so it will be tough to determine the actual effects this nerf has on pyrotech

 

but the math is not really up for debate. bioware had two options to reduce the potential triple rail shot reset that seems to be the source of the nerfs.

 

1.) enforce a internal cooldown on the reset proc

2.) decrease the chance for the reset to proc.

 

option 2 would have yielded the same results (significant reduction in % chance for triple reset), yet they decided to fk the whole tree up and went with an internal cooldown.

 

pyrotech already has some of the worst resource management in the game, and depending on how 1.2 comes out arsenal may, unfortunately, actually be a more effective choice for spike dps in pvp because of the far more efficient heat management

 

Heat / ammo management... ROFL

 

This argument is terrible. I'll explain my PoV. So, currently, if you're lucky to get procs on every Stockstrikes / ion pulse, you don't need to use hammer shots ever nor to watch your ammo, and you can constantly use skills that use ammo without worry. THIS ISN'T SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE THAT.

 

In whatever build you play your trooper / BH, you NEED to manage your ammo / heat and USE your free attack regularly to make sure you maintain a decent amount of ammo regen / heat degen.

 

This build IS BROKEN. If you are lucky you don't use your free attack ever. Can't you friggin understand balance and INTENT on the designer's part ? Do you really think they INTENDED the shared tree to be much better than all the other trees of the 4 ACs, in terms of ammo / heat management, burst / sustained DPS ? Gimme a break. Nope, it wasn't supposed to be that good. I'd even claim a good commando / merc assault / pyro would have more burst and total damage in a long fight than gunnery / arsenal, just because all damage is instant (no interrupts) and with luck you never run out of ammo / overheat (and you DO in every other builds). The BH / trooper classes are designed to NNED to USE your base attack as a part of your rotation. If you disagree with me, you're just clueless, really. Or delusional, because you thought you had stellar skills playing that OP build. When I actually spec Assault, I need less hotkeys and kill people faster, that's AWESOMEBBQSAUCE player skills right there.

 

IN EVERY OTHER BUILDS a trooper / bh will have trouble managing their resources. But oh wait, assault / pyro was meant to be faceroll easy, don't even need to use your base attack. NOPE it wasn't. Get a *********** clue on BALANCE. This is a joke of a community really. Complaining about having to manage resources on sorcs / sages, on healing mercs / commandos, and now on Pyro BHs and Assault troopers. All you whiners want is EZ MODE carebear faceroll gameplay. 5 buttons, no need to manage anything, opponent's dead. Here's how to deal with this nerf :

 

L2P or ****

Edited by Faat
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The poster above me has no idea what he's talking about.

 

The chance to get 3 Railshot resets in a row is less than 4%.

 

The chance to get 3 railshot resets and have them all crit is less than 0.5% (half a percent).

 

This did not need a nerf. Bioware is scaring me with their inability to properly manage the balancing of classes.

 

- W.

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