Right - it already happens so if you want to avoid bad players start your own group with known players or solo. The ability to change AC would have no bigger impact than me specing heals when all I've done is DPS.

The fact that something undesirable happens now is not a reason to increase the likelihood of that undesirable situation occurring.

Try doing a /who in fleet. Tell me how many characters over level 10 have their class listed as BOUNTY HUNTER. How many characters over level 10 have their class listed as MERCENARY or POWERTECH? I'm betting there are 0 characters over level 10 with bounty hunter as their class and many with either mercenary or powertech. This tells me that the devs see powertech and mercenary as DIFFERENT classes. If they were the same class and just a different spec, wouldn't the class be bounty hunter?

Just out of curiousity (and mind you, I'm not lobbying for an AC swap because I don't really care one way or the other), what are your thoughts on the comments earlier in this thread pointing out:

1. Everquest 2 has AC swap.

2. WOW is selling "instant level 90s".

3. Rift allows soul swapping, which is similar to an AC swap.

I provided a scenario above a few posts back.

 

You are arguing semantics on the the definition of advanced class vs class. I'm not going to get into a circular argument with you on this, it's been done many times in this thread.

 

Using WoW as an example really isn't going to help your point - they are currently selling Level 90 character boosts. So instead of "turning your Mage into a Rogue", you can buy a freshly minted 90 Rogue and keep your 90 Mage as well.

 

As for pay to win, when this feature is implemented I imagine it would be available by Cartel Coins and Credits, so it would not be pay to win.

The level 90 boosts in WoW are $60 and while that is max level now, it will not be once the expansion hits later this year. Would you be willing to pay $60 to change your class?

I've not seen anyone in this thread willing to pay $60 to change their class. It seems that most people want it to be at most $20 and many would prefer it to be far less than that.

Just out of curiousity (and mind you, I'm not lobbying for an AC swap because I don't really care one way or the other), what are your thoughts on the comments earlier in this thread pointing out:

 

1. Everquest 2 has AC swap.

2. WOW is selling "instant level 90s".

3. Rift allows soul swapping, which is similar to an AC swap.

I would be 100% behind something similar to Rift, that was brilliant. Souls are more like class trees though.

I could probably get behind something like being able to choose 3 trees out of the 6. It might completely botch the game up for a while (especially PvP), but it would certainly add more variety, and accomplish the same outcome.

Neither of us have any real data ( aside from our own experiences ) that would say there is a demand or a dislike for the feature. Bioware has the metrics ( abandoned characters, deleted ACs, tickets requesting to change AC, tickets suggesting the feature, etc ).

 

Having said that, I feel the developers silence on the issue speaks loudly that they are at least entertaining the idea. Eric could post in this 400+ page thread and state they have no intent to offer an AC change feature. That's fine, so be it, end of story.

 

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I do not believe the FOTM crowd is as rampant as some claim. SWTOR has a casual player base. Look at the number of NiM progression guilds and Ranked PvPers vs the entire population.

 

Based on my experiences in this and other MMOs, most casual players choose a class based on theme, aesthetics, and combat mechanics. Allowing an AC change can rekindle interest in an abandoned character, provide revenue for the game, and retain a player that would otherwise leave. Someone may dust off that level 50 Jugg they never intended to touch again, change them to a Mara, level them to 55 and find a new interest in playing that character again. That's healthy for the game!

 

Are there going to be some regstars that want to change AC for some perceived advantage in 8v8s? Of course. Why deny a feature for the entire player base due to this?

I see the devs' silence on this matter as an indication that they are NOT considering allowing class changes now.

Eric could just as easily post in this thread and let us know it is still on "the wall of crazy" or even something that they are still considering or would like to do.

Right now they have those who want to change their class paying and playing based in part on the hope that they will one day allow class changes. They also have those who are against class changes paying and playing while they do not allow class changes. If they came out and issued a more definitive statement, they risk alienating one faction or the other.

If BW issued a statement that they would not be implementing class changes anytime in the near future, those who wish to change their class would likely stop paying and/or playing if they had to actually <gasp> put some effort into actually leveling that new class instead of having it handed to them. Those against class changes would just as likely stop paying and/or playing if BW issued a statement that they would be implementing class changes.

I cannot speak for others, but I have a Gunslinger, Scoundrel, and Operative ( and several other classes ). I support AC changes because I believe it is overall healthy for the game to provide more options for its players.

 

To answer your question, consider:

• The player that decides they do not enjoy their level 35 Vanguard, and would like to experience the Commando AC without replaying 35 levels.
  
• Someone that has an abandoned character, e.g. a Level 50 Sentinel they have not played since 1.4 They have no desire to start again from level 1, however the option to change to a Guardian has renewed their interest in the character.
  
• One that is bored of their 55 alt, has no desire to do the same class quests, same planetary arcs, or grind GSF/KDY, but is curious in the play style of the other AC.
  

 

These are all candidates for AC Changes, the end result would be renewed/retained player interest and additional revenue for the game.

Those are all also candidates for leveling that new class they want to play. Each of your examples is also a player who is too averse to the effort of leveling that new player. I think there is a word which is defined as "an aversion to work or EFFORT". That word seems to describe each of the players in your examples.

While BW may see some players return and/or stay if they allow class changes, they WILL lose players as well. Will they gain or keep as many as they lose? Who knows? Only BW can make that determination.

Just out of curiousity (and mind you, I'm not lobbying for an AC swap because I don't really care one way or the other), what are your thoughts on the comments earlier in this thread pointing out:

 

1. Everquest 2 has AC swap.

2. WOW is selling "instant level 90s".

3. Rift allows soul swapping, which is similar to an AC swap.

Was EQ2 built from the ground up to allow their version of "AC swap"? I don't know since I never played EQ2. I do know that this game was NOT.

WoW is selling instant 90's now for $60 and while that is level cap now, it will not be when the expansion hits later this year. Are you willing to pay $60 to change your class?

Rift has the soul system, but souls are NOT classes. That game was also designed from the ground up to allow for an almost infinite combination of souls and to allow those souls to be freely changed, much like changing specs.

Not exactly comparing apples to apples, are we?

Wow, quite a lot of hate for this idea.

I think that AC changes would be harmless as long as there were some restrictions put in place:

• $20 Cost for AC change
  
• Maximum 3 AC swaps per character
  
• Player must re-purchase all abilities (unless character is level 55 and has purchased all abilities)
  
• Account-wide 30 day lockout of AC swap for those who do it
  

With these in place it would help discourage/prevent players from switching ACs every five seconds, and hopefully still accomplish what SWTOR-dedicated AC Swappers want accomplished.

Was EQ2 built from the ground up to allow their version of "AC swap"? I don't know since I never played EQ2. I do know that this game was NOT.

Never played it, don't know.

WoW is selling instant 90's now for $60 and while that is level cap now, it will not be when the expansion hits later this year. Are you willing to pay $60 to change your class?

Me? Absolutely not. But then again, I have 16 toons (one of each AC). So I'm not really the target market for AC swaps, am I?

On the other hand, would you be satisfied with AC swap implemented if it cost $60? Or would you disagree with it's implementation even then?

Rift has the soul system, but souls are NOT classes. That game was also designed from the ground up to allow for an almost infinite combination of souls and to allow those souls to be freely changed, much like changing specs.

I suppose it could be argued that it's more like AC swap than isn't, but I'm not a Rift expert, so I won't try to do so.

Not exactly comparing apples to apples, are we?

I'm not the one that was comparing it. That was someone else -- I was simply curious as to your thoughts on it.

I find it interesting how strongly you feel about this. I mean, I don't particularly disagree with the points you make, it's just that I can't quite muster up enough hate for the idea to carry a torch about it like you seem to.

Never played it, don't know.

As I said, that makes two of us.

Me? Absolutely not. But then again, I have 16 toons (one of each AC). So I'm not really the target market for AC swaps, am I?

 

On the other hand, would you be satisfied with AC swap implemented if it cost $60? Or would you disagree with it's implementation even then?

I'm against allowing class changes, but if they charged $60 for them, it would make it easier to accept. $60 is enough to make someone really consider whether having that new class is worth paying the price to change or if it would be better to actually level that new class. It would also go a long way towards cutting down the number of people who might otherwise just flip-flop their classes at the drop of a hat.

I suppose it could be argued that it's more like AC swap than isn't, but I'm not a Rift expert, so I won't try to do so.

Just as it could be argued that the souls are closer to the spec trees.

I'm not the one that was comparing it. That was someone else -- I was simply curious as to your thoughts on it.

 

I find it interesting how strongly you feel about this. I mean, I don't particularly disagree with the points you make, it's just that I can't quite muster up enough hate for the idea to carry a torch about it like you seem to.

I just think some things should be left in the "have to be earned" category and playing a different class should be one of them. IMO, there are far too many people who want to use "it's a game" as an excuse for laziness and asking to have things handed to them.

Was EQ2 built from the ground up to allow their version of "AC swap"? I don't know since I never played EQ2. I do know that this game was NOT.

 

WoW is selling instant 90's now for $60 and while that is level cap now, it will not be when the expansion hits later this year. Are you willing to pay $60 to change your class?

 

Rift has the soul system, but souls are NOT classes. That game was also designed from the ground up to allow for an almost infinite combination of souls and to allow those souls to be freely changed, much like changing specs.

 

Not exactly comparing apples to apples, are we?

WoW's Level 90 boost is also included with the purchase of their 6.0 expansion. I'll ask you a similar question - would you be comfortable with a free Level 50 ( previous level cap boost ) for everyone that purchases ROTHC?

As for Rift's soul system, is it very much comparable to Advanced Classes in SWTOR. You select your souls while leveling your class which provide access to the soul trees. These can be changed at anytime.

Let's imagine a world if Rift did not allow Soul swapping, and people requested it:

Using your logic:

• You didn't level with the Shaman soul, so you won't know how to play it at cap.
  
• Bladedancers are overpowered, everyone will FOTM to one if they allow soul swapping
  
• I leveled two Clerics, if you want a Shaman soul, then level another Cleric.
  

Yet here we are, Soul Swapping exists, and does not ruin that game. Rift Souls and TOR Advanced Classes are very similar features. TOR is ( for now ) more restrictive. The developers should reevaluate this design decision, as myself and others feel it would be a great addition to the game.

To claim that this game was not designed around Advanced Class swapping is a false statement.

I recall in beta the developers changing their stance on it several times. Before release ( around Nov 2011 ) they indicated there would be an AC change feature with an increasing cost as your character gained levels. The last communication from the developers on this issue is that it would "likely happen".

The level 90 boosts in WoW are $60 and while that is max level now, it will not be once the expansion hits later this year. Would you be willing to pay $60 to change your class?

 

I've not seen anyone in this thread willing to pay $60 to change their class. It seems that most people want it to be at most $20 and many would prefer it to be far less than that.

If for some reason BW caved in to these people, you can bet it will not be $20. Do not forget, a SINGLE USE BLACK/BLACK DYE almost cost that much.

Something as game breaking as this feature will go for $90 minimum.

If people are so desperate or bone idle, let them put their money where their mouths are and support the game rather than expecting everything handed to them on a plate.

Something as game breaking as this feature will go for $90 minimum.

.

Can you elaborate why you feel this feature would be game breaking? Several of the concerns and myths ( player skill, FOTM abuse ) have been addressed by the supporters of an AC Change feature.

If people are so desperate or bone idle, let them put their money where their mouths are and support the game rather than expecting everything handed to them on a plate.

Who is asking for something to be handed to them on a plate? Those that have suggested the feature are willing to pay Cartel Coins or Credits via the GTN or a Vendor ( similar to the Mercenary Contract for Treek ). The feature would be accessible in a variety of ways to the player base.

Something as game breaking as this feature will go for $90 minimum.

 

If people are so desperate or bone idle, let them put their money where their mouths are and support the game rather than expecting everything handed to them on a plate.

Game breaking? LOL! Please...I'd love to hear what you think is so "game breaking" about this idea...because that's one of the most ridiculous comments I've ever heard with this debate.

People don't need to be "desperate" or "bone idle" to want this freedom. MMOs are meant to be played for fun. If my current AC isn't "fun" to me and I think the alternative AC might be, why the hell are you so against it? If it keeps a bored or frustrated player playing, isn't that good for the health of the game and the community as a whole?

Please name ONE negative of this...just ONE! There isn't one imo. There's NO reason not to allow this at all, just people like you who think it's your freaking business what AC I opt to play...mind your own business, play whatever way you want, but you have no right to be so freaking nosy that you give a flip what AC I opt to play.

Over 50% of my skills remain the exact same, AC to AC. Switching AC is nothing more than a slightly different respec.

Geezus people...what a bunch of nosy Nancy's.

...Please name ONE negative of this...just ONE! There isn't one imo. There's NO reason not to allow this at all, just people like you who think it's your freaking business what AC I opt to play...mind your own business, play whatever way you want, but you have no right to be so freaking nosy that you give a flip what AC I opt to play. ...

And here lies the problem, TUXs. When both sides truly believe there isn't a reason to allow, or disallow an AC change, it just becomes one big argument.

I agree that there is a very weak argument for not allowing it compared to possibly allowing it. I like how Erickson originally explained that the idea was all about choices being meaningful. This to me is why I would like it to remain permanent where no AC change exists. Unfortunately, at the same time you look at some choices that were originally in the story that were removed because of players being upset they just killed off a companion that they felt were needed later on, and this even throws the previous case out the window.

I can see where both sides are coming from because it is like a slap in the face to those who played the same base class twice to get the other AC. At the same time, a new player isn't going to necessarily understand why this is permanent whereas in a game like WOW, it isn't. Whether it will be changed in the future, only time will tell. It is a game-breaking decision, however; as it could cost as many or more players than it could save. Will this decision be made lightly? Most likely not. If it does come, is it a sign that the game is on it's last legs, or is it a sign that game is thriving and continues to be a driving force within the MMO community? Only then will we know if this decision makes the impact that everyone in this thread does agree on. One that will change the game. For better, or for worse? Only time and the opinions of a multitude of players will tell.

And of course, there's the peer pressure of guilds demanding that you switch to the FOTM side so that you aren't hampering their progression, or PUGs that demand you switch so you can provide your alternate classes utility role, even if you don't have the gear for it ...

 

The option to swap ACs gives people something else they can unrealistically expect you to do.

"We don't want your Guardian, switch to Sentinel or get kicked."

Not something I want to hear after initial "Hi!".

I provided a scenario above a few posts back.

 

You are arguing semantics on the the definition of advanced class vs class. I'm not going to get into a circular argument with you on this, it's been done many times in this thread.

If you think the exact definition of a class and how Bioware themselves has defined it is semantics, then I don't know what else to tell you.

Using WoW as an example really isn't going to help your point - they are currently selling Level 90 character boosts. So instead of "turning your Mage into a Rogue", you can buy a freshly minted 90 Rogue and keep your 90 Mage as well.

Has nothing to do with the topic. Burying your head in the sand and just denying that every point your opponent makes does not win an argument. This must be what Bill Nye felt like when he was debating Ken Ham.

As for pay to win, when this feature is implemented I imagine it would be available by Cartel Coins and Credits, so it would not be pay to win.

If paid level 55 showed up in the Cartel Market and was available for both coins or credits would that not be pay to win? It would, so is this.

Now I remember why I quit this argument in the first place. I'm done here. You guys can't provide one valid reason why class change should happen, and you provide no counters for any of my points other than "nuh uh that's not how I want it so its not true".

And here lies the problem, TUXs. When both sides truly believe there isn't a reason to allow, or disallow an AC change, it just becomes one big argument.

Let me be clear...I have my 55 Mando and my 55 VG...I would NOT have any interest in using this feature at all. None. But I know players who would and if it keeps them interested and playing. Who am I to say they shouldn't be able to? What is the honest and real impact on me if someone does this? Why on earth would I be more interested in some silly punitive punishment to players for picking heads over tails, rather than expanding their freedom to enjoy the game in a way that impacts me in NO way?

See, I don't see this as an argument at all. I haven't read even ONE reasonable excuse as to why this shouldn't be allowed. I've challenged every person I can to convince me otherwise because I am VERY open to being wrong and changing my mind, but not one person has even slightly swayed my opinion.

This is truly as silly as someone suggesting I shouldn't be able to pick the hair color/style I want...it has NO IMPACT on them whatsoever. NONE!

This is truly as silly as someone suggesting I shouldn't be able to pick the hair color/style I want...it has NO IMPACT on them whatsoever. NONE!

Silly comparison to say the least, unless of course changing one's hair or race has a meaningful impact in gameplay, which I think has NOT.

If paid level 55 showed up in the Cartel Market and was available for both coins or credits would that not be pay to win? It would, so is this.

No, it wouldn't be 'Pay to Win'. At best you could call it 'Pay to Bypass Levelling Timesink'.

'Pay to Win' is often misunderstood, the core definition is buying something with cash than the best item available in game.

So, the only way this would be a 'Pay to Win' is if the max level for a Cartel Market character was 60 while normal characters remained 55.

If you think the exact definition of a class and how Bioware themselves has defined it is semantics, then I don't know what else to tell you.

There have been several debates on the term "Class" vs "Base Class" vs "Advanced Class". What else is there to discuss? We are requesting a feature to change our "Advanced Class".

Has nothing to do with the topic. Burying your head in the sand and just denying that every point your opponent makes does not win an argument. This must be what Bill Nye felt like when he was debating Ken Ham.

You raised the issue of changing your WoW Mage into a Rogue and brought this into the topic, so I'm not sure why you feel it has nothing to do with the topic. I presented the fact that Blizzard is going one step further and allowing someone to retain their 90 Mage, as well as purchase a 90 Rogue.

No one is suggesting the ability to change your base class ( Trooper -> Knight ) so your argument has no substance.

Personal attacks to do not support your argument. Address the issues point by point I have made in other posts.

If paid level 55 showed up in the Cartel Market and was available for both coins or credits would that not be pay to win? It would, so is this.

My definition of Pay to Win would be the ability to purchase raid quality gear or a buff that enhances your character's performance.

Do you consider XP boosts Pay to Win? Do you consider Rocket Boosts Pay to Win?

Now I remember why I quit this argument in the first place. I'm done here. You guys can't provide one valid reason why class change should happen, and you provide no counters for any of my points other than "nuh uh that's not how I want it so its not true".

I provided several reasonable scenarios a few posts back. Feel free to comment on them if you decide to return to this thread.

Silly comparison to say the least, unless of course changing one's hair or race has a meaningful impact in gameplay, which I think has NOT.

My hair color impacts your gameplay as much as my AC choice does.

See, I don't see this as an argument at all. I haven't read even ONE reasonable excuse as to why this shouldn't be allowed. I've challenged every person I can to convince me otherwise because I am VERY open to being wrong and changing my mind, but not one person has even slightly swayed my opinion.

 

This is truly as silly as someone suggesting I shouldn't be able to pick the hair color/style I want...it has NO IMPACT on them whatsoever. NONE!

Yes, but look at some of the other posts.

Now I remember why I quit this argument in the first place. I'm done here. You guys can't provide one valid reason why class change should happen, and you provide no counters for any of my points other than "nuh uh that's not how I want it so its not true".

Why? this is a stupid suggestion why bother arguing?

It's a stupid suggestion in your opinion. Which is fine, since you're entitled to your opinion.

This is ridiculous

That's right. I forgot that you know better than the devs. Or, at least you think you do.

Those above are just a few I found while skimming through about five pages within this mess of a thread. As I said, and I'm not pointing you out as being for, or against it because you want it, I'm just trying to point out that this argument has gone on for over 420 pages and no matter which "facts" are presented on either side. I use the term "facts" loosely here since it's more opinionative than actual facts. These "facts" don't sway either side. They just start belittling, and berating each other because they don't see the other's point of view. It really doesn't matter where the overall decision goes.

The bottom line is this thread is going nowhere because the same arguments that are presented are being denied by the opposition. When that happens, how is there a reasonable discussion? Most of these posters state "Give me ONE reason it should/shouldn't happen! You can't!". So tell me TUXs, how can such an argument be settled without having the Devs get involved by stating whether or not it will happen? Is it the only way? I'm quite intrigued by what you think considering you are one of the one's who regularly posts constructive arguments on such topics in these forums.

"We don't want your Guardian, switch to Sentinel or get kicked."

Not something I want to hear after initial "Hi!".

I must be lucky in the PUGs I join. My DPS Powertech (Advanced Prototype) has not once been asked to swap out to Tank. (something I could do at a moments notice with no cost, and I even have a near maxed set of tanking gear as well)

I don't understand why it would be an issue with AC swapping when it doesn't appear to be an issue with current specialisation.

The worst scenario I've encountered is when a member of the PUG volunteers to go Tank or Healer just to get the FP/ OP off the ground. All the times this has happened in my experience has been initiated by the player and never demanded by the group.

So tell me TUXs, how can such an argument be settled without having the Devs get involved by stating whether or not it will happen? Is it the only way? I'm quite intrigued by what you think considering you are one of the one's who regularly posts constructive arguments on such topics in these forums.

They have already spoken though - page 1...the very first post here. This thread didn't start out asking IF it should happen...it started out asking WHEN it would.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dulfy and Damion Schubert

18. Will be there any faction or Advanced Class change option available for purchase in the future?

We have had serious talks recently about offering an Advanced Class change option – I think that one will likely happen eventually. Species is likely as well. Doing a faction switch is considerably more difficult for us, though, due to the various quest flags set throughout the level up process, so this isn’t on the horizon anytime soon.

I too would like to know when it's coming