I tried out carnage a few days ago after 1.4, and I am now quite convinced that it is by far the worst overall spec for 1.4. The only time I would consider it now is for Huttball, and that is only for speed boost to ball carriers and to be a dedicated ball returner / enemy ball carrier killer. Why? Well it requires more time on target than other specs. Anni, you can apply dots and even if you get stunned or knocked back, at least your dots are ticking. Rage, you do such incredible burst - you get that 6-7k smash off and then if youre stunned or cced for a little bit, it's not as big of a deal. With carnage, if someone interrupts your gore chain with a knockback, stun, or cc, you have to wait for 9 seconds to do another one. Carnage doesn't get the damage reduction or self heals of either of the other specs, so it has the lowest survivability also. With the sorc bubble stunfest that 1.4 is, I just don't find carnage to be worth my time.

 

Also, when I went carnage the other day I was actually losing 1v1s against rage maras/juggs - people that I typically have no problem with. What I found is that, while carnage needs as much time on target as possible to inflict damage, Rage does not. It's very easy for a Rage mara to use point blank fear cc, force choke or force cloak after any of your gores, completely screwing your dps rotation as carnage. Plus, the biggest drawback of rage is the cooldown on smash / obliterate. By using cc's, stuns, and force cloak, they negate a big portion of that drawback. The typical fight would go something like:

 

One of us gets off charge, I massacre, gore start to ravage - interrupted by force cloak. Meanwhile, he has generated 4 stacks of shockwave and is ready to oblit / smash or just smash if he got off first charge. He immediately comes out of cloak, smashes, force chokes. By this point I am at half health. He now uses his point blank aoe fear, runs away, charges at the last moment and smashes again. Now I am significantly low. I can use force choke on him, but it won't make up for those 2 big smashes that he got off while I was cced and got my gore chain interrupted. At this point, he will probably have berserk, meaning a full, free rage bar. Now I am either low enough that he can vicious throw (which HITS for 3k+, crits for 5k+ with a 15% higher crit chance as rage) or I will be after 1-2 more moves. At this point, I am forced to use undying rage and potion and I can likely get off a full gore chain on him, making him also undying rage + potion, however mine will wear off before his does, and he has a 4 stack smash ready at this point. I can try cloaking and surprising him, and I might get lucky, but the reality is that I have been at a disadvantage since the opening 5-6 moves of the fight, during which the rage warrior got a solid lead on me by using his CCs and smash burst damage. At this point, smash + vicious throw seal the deal, I am dead and the Rage marauder is victorious.

 

Now that's just one encounter example, but in PvP right now, a huge factor for every class is bubble stun. If there is even one bubble stun sorc / sage in your battleground, you will get punished every time you touch someone. Anni and Rage both can deal with this better than carnage. Anni, hell you can put up bleeds and run away from the target while your bleeds pop the bubble. This doesn't always work, and especially not in the cases of focus fire, but in many it does. With rage, you can use saber throw + force scream to pop it , since neither is a vital part of your rotation (unlike carnage where force scream is your single biggest hitting ability).

 

The only real use I can see for a carnage marauder in 1.4 is to slow/root and focus fire down ball carriers in Huttball, and to carry the ball with run speed + pred. The funny thing is, carnage didn't change, but the buffs to rage and bubble stuns impact carnage in a very negative way. I am sad to see this unique spec go, but I guess having 3 viable pvp tress couldn't last forever. Thoughts? Comments? Flames? Go!

I disagree that its dead. I can still manage to get great number when im doing carnage spec.

 

You are right that carnage requires more time on target but thats why ravage/ and deadly throw root ppl.

 

Though carnage is my favorite spec, so there is some bias i guess.

 

But Anni has the greater survivability, always has. Its great for solo quing and 1v1.

 

However has a carnage spec you have to be a little more aware of the other classes than the other specs. As you mentions the others , anni has healing / rage has more damage mitigation, so you have to wait to use our hardest go to comb of a gore ravage until you get knocked back... is the favorite thing for a ranged class and inquisitors to do. OMG A MARAUDER OVERLOAD!

I like to start with a mass - gore force scream because even in a knock back situation i can still hit them with it...

then jump back.

 

But you are right... carnage is effected a lot more by increase in stuns.

The bubble stun needs to be looked at by Bioware, but calling Carnage dead is exaggerating things. It's tidbit more frustrating in wzs now, but keep in mind sage and sorcs are gimping themselves just to get that stun.

 

While going Rage may be tempting, the fact of the matter is Combat still offers one of the best bursts in game (and I refuse to play rage out of principle). You can simply adapt to the bubble stun. Purposely break it, then use your normal rotation.

 

In one on one situations, you should have no problems killing off another Rage specced Mara or Jug. Sweep hits for a measly 3.5k - 4k with aoe dmg reduc, and that's his biggest hitter.

Basically agree with what the OP said.

 

Though i would say that carnage/combat is far from dead since many on my server still use it even after 1.4 and i spec into it myself if my guild does rateds and want me to do it.

 

But for solo wzs without a healer... its just a pain and so frustrating inbetween all the stunfest. Sure, with hard work and a bit of luck u still can be top dps on ur own with it but i feel like i can achieve damage much easier with watchman and focus. And here lies my first problem/mistake:

 

I didnt change my playstyle when i changed to combat at first. Since combat was the last spec i tried on my sentinel ( and focus being my main) i had the least experiences there and so tried to fight like i was doing as watchman or focus every day before. - Charging into people fearlessly, kill them quick, kill their friends and kill some more while staying alive as long as possible no matter what they throw at u. Needless to say the self-heals and damage reduction (+reduced cd on gbtf) of these specs could keep up an illusion of u being an one-man-army sometimes.

 

But as combat ur not anything like that, ur a glass canon. And getting stunned (especially if they target u specifically) all time ur just glass... At first i thought i just suck at combat but other sentinels have told me of similar experiences and they only run ataru if they know they have a pocket healer. So the solution for me when i was solo-queing with combat was to change my playstyle radically.

 

I didnt try to engage 1vs2+ fights anymore, i run away from them. Every time a strong Watchman/Annihalation Mara jumps on me, i hit camo and run away. Running away is is not hard in this spec. So instead, i try to engage enemies who are alrdy engaged in battle and unload my dps on them while they use their cc on others. I always look around where my healers are and if they can reach me or if i can reach the healing pots if it gets critical, hell i even save my transcendence for this.

Doing all that has increased my survivability and thus allows me to do more damage but its still disappointing when u realize that watchman and especially focus can give u better survivability and more damage at the same time. ( again, saying this is at least in my case)

 

Im most effective when i see myself not as the frontline warrior but rather the flanking opportunist... The team supporter with speed boost and roots ready on demand, not the point man.

I've gone 1 on 1 with some of the best guardians and marauders on our server since respeccing back to rage over a week ago. I haven't lost vs any of them, by a long shot. Against pug premades with pocket heals I am consistently getting 950+ dps, and 1k or even 1.1k+ is not uncommon.

 

We've been running 2x smash maras + 2x pyrotechs or 1 PT + sniper in our rateds. The one team that really challenges us on our server for rateds has a similar comp, which means the majority of their dps is "melee" (PTs are basically melee as well). All those smashes tend to devastate the other team.

 

The problem is not so much carnage, but just the changes to resolve and bubble stun, buffs to some other ranged classes, and you end up having less time on target than ever in warzones. It's rare that I am attacking a target for more than 5 seconds consistently, and that is what Carnage requires to do good burst - 6 seconds consistently on target. If you don't get it, you have to wait to gore. Add to that the squishiness of the spec, the fact that it does not benefit from using things like force choke, and it becomes the inferior spec.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with carnage, but it's place in warzones is very narrow and limited due to how resolve works and changes to other classes. Another way I could put it is this: The only time a carnage marauder is effective is if he/she is ignored by the opposing teams stuns/ccs and dps. Rage is much easier to set up burst damage and keep it going. It's very rare that I get a 4 stack of shockwave and don't get to hit at least 2 people with it. That's 10k Damage minimum in one GCD, versus 6 seconds for a carnage marauder to push maybe 12-16k.

 

Maybe it's not 100% dead, but it is now the red headed step child spec that gets beaten by its older brothers.

I'm fairly sure having a tree that is egregiously overpowered doesn't make any of the other trees less effective. It just makes them less desirable. A better title would be carnage is not broken: why you shouldn't run it.

 

Also who are you 1v1ing? You should never beat an anni marauder as rage; that's one of the few 'drawbacks'.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Ryvirath

I'm fairly sure having a tree that is egregiously overpowered doesn't make any of the other trees less effective. It just makes them less desirable. A better title would be carnage is not broken: why you shouldn't run it.

 

Also who are you 1v1ing? You should never beat an anni marauder as rage; that's one of the few 'drawbacks'.

 

I don't think we have any marauders/sents that spec anni that are anywhere near my skill level any more. They are all rage, or some are stubbornly clinging to carnage. But yeah you're spot on, anni should always beat other specs in a 1v1 considering all things equal. I think a big part of not seeing anni marauders is that they have all remodded their gear for pure power or are in the process of doing this, and that gear set up is much less effective for anni than the standard set with a few accuracy enhances swapped for power or crit.

I still want to know how the hell u got a 7k hit on me, made me respec back to heals after that game lol

I still want to know how the hell u got a 7k hit on me, made me respec back to heals after that game lol

 

If it was your sage, sages in general are pretty easy to land those hits on. It's rare that I see less than 6k when smashing a sage, unless they have bubble up or a guard.

If it was your sage, sages in general are pretty easy to land those hits on. It's rare that I see less than 6k when smashing a sage, unless they have bubble up or a guard.

 

I'm used to 6k, when Caedo and Skillzex(think that his name) and the many other smashes only get 6-6.4k in my full gear, and an ungodly amount of 5.6ks for people trying to be lolsmash and failing. was just shocked lol

 

There certainly is less good anni/carnage maras on our server though. Still see some every so often, but there ain't much of a kick in their hits.

The bubble stun needs to be looked at by Bioware, but calling Carnage dead is exaggerating things. It's tidbit more frustrating in wzs now, but keep in mind sage and sorcs are gimping themselves just to get that stun.

 

While going Rage may be tempting, the fact of the matter is Combat still offers one of the best bursts in game (and I refuse to play rage out of principle). You can simply adapt to the bubble stun. Purposely break it, then use your normal rotation.

 

In one on one situations, you should have no problems killing off another Rage specced Mara or Jug. Sweep hits for a measly 3.5k - 4k with aoe dmg reduc, and that's his biggest hitter.

 

No sage/sorc is gimping themselves to get the bubble. If anything they're improving their skill set with it and the survivability of their whole team with it. 3 second aoe stun is enough time to stop damage on someone and get off a big heal as a sorc. It's far too amazing to not use and it will mitigate far more damage.

No sage/sorc is gimping themselves to get the bubble. If anything they're improving their skill set with it and the survivability of their whole team with it. 3 second aoe stun is enough time to stop damage on someone and get off a big heal as a sorc. It's far too amazing to not use and it will mitigate far more damage.

 

Dead on with that post sir. You give up roughly 10% healing power and your aoe heal, which to be honest the aoe heal is very force inefficient from what our guild sorc healers tell me, so it is rarely used.

 

Some of the other benefits include not having to use consumption to get back force. Instead, you get double speed lightning cast that have a chance to proc force regen talent, as well as the ability to cast the spammable lightning spell for regen procs. If you hit a lightning after every couple of heals, you get damn near infinite force, without having to damage yourself via consumption, which gives you better survivability.

 

The reason, specifically, that this bubble is so good now, is that resolve from multiple stuns does not overlap in 1.4. Now add to this the fact that unlike most stuns which give a certain amount of resolve per second of stun time, these bubble stuns give half the normal amount of resolve for their stun time. They also no longer break on damage. So let's think about this. With an instant cast, you are absorbing ~3.5-4k damage and stunning multiple targets for 3 seconds, or 2 GCD. Good players can easily do 5-6k damage in those 2 GCDs. If you stun 5 people for 3 seconds in a ranked game for instance, while your team is not stunned and dpsing them, you have just saved your team from taking 25-30k damage, plus the amount the bubble absorbed. Plus, instead of damaging yourself to regen force, you get to damage the enemy team! How could a healer NOT play this build?

It might be dead for you... but I'm still putting out numbers like this:

 

http://imageshack.us/f/580/screenshot2012102109013.jpg/

 

I just did that warzone 2 minutes ago.

I have a 50 WH geared mara, jugg and op heals and i would say carnage is FAR from dead... I let the small bump in dps from berzerk go and just hit pred everytime i have fury for it (unless frenzy is not there for emergencies) the speed and defense boost helps out my healers a ton. One of the op healers weaknesses is a lack of knockback and the speed helps create distance. With coordination and some slows you can organize objective switches faster than they can compensate... It has its place, just harder to see without an organized team...

Also if you open with gore>scream, u vet the bulk of your damage in reguardless of cc... If you time you abilities right its really easy to stick to your target, start of with BA for rage massacre for buff if class has a kb wait a few for them to blow it, charge gore scream ravage viscious throw win. Choose targets like you would a concealment up not aoe smasher, or stay back and defend healers. Just pretend your gore scream is a single target smash

Edited October 21, 2012 by ACTroyan

Carnage is still what some of the Mara's in my guild use - it works fine in HM EC and HM TfB so it can't be that bad for PvE.

I still stubbornly cling to carnage...but that's only because I have fun in it!! lol. I do much better everything in rage, but it's just so damn boring, I can't stand it...I'd rather gimp myself and continue to enjoy playing the game, then be bored out of my mind while destroying everything

Ranked warzones still require Carnage marauders. No good RWZ team should queue without one.

 

Believe it or not, Juggernauts are still better for Rage.

 

Our core group uses 1 Rage Juggernaut, 1 Powertech, 1 Carnage Marauder, 1 Operative Healer, 1 Sorc Healer, 2 Assassins DPS/Tank hybrids and 1 Tank Juggernaut.

I simply feel like carnage is too easy to shut down. It relies so much on being able to get off other abilities after gore, and our server has gotten great at shutting down a mara after he gores. Against people that eat a full ravage or let you get off 3 GCD after gore, sure it will kill them. That may happen once in about 30 engagements for me nowadays in Rateds. Now for normals, I suppose carnage is fine given the average players ability.

I simply feel like carnage is too easy to shut down. It relies so much on being able to get off other abilities after gore, and our server has gotten great at shutting down a mara after he gores. Against people that eat a full ravage or let you get off 3 GCD after gore, sure it will kill them. That may happen once in about 30 engagements for me nowadays in Rateds. Now for normals, I suppose carnage is fine given the average players ability.

 

 

i play carnage exclusively all the other specs bore me tbh, the speed and utility is unmatched as a melee dps, i can respond to nodes immediately and effectively shut down a ball carrier in huttball. It really feels more of a support spec to me. In ranked i find my jugg buddy and wait for him to leap and eat a knock back before i leap and engage so my burst is uninterrupted and at the same time i hold them in place for other dps to burn him down.

 

 

tbh this has been happening a hell of a lot lately, i have found a way around it, i leap to them and start a ravage i know it will immediately be shut down with a stun or knock back, after that i do my 2 massacre scream combo with gore , and it still works.

 

not to mention force camo breaking roots, makes snipers/gs and tele/lightning / hybrid sorc/sages knock backs a joke.I absolutely love being able to immediately pressure a hybrid healer as soon as he wastes his knock back, ALSO, a force scream crit 100% of the time breaks a bubble so to avoid a blind open with a scream and then close in for the kill.

Edited October 22, 2012 by darthnish

Sounds like someone needs an ego check.

 

Rage is a one trick pony and is easier to shut down in my opinion, and is better suited for Juggs. Carnage requires a different mindset to play effectively, and more skill than the other two specs. Enjoy your new toy while it lasts...because it won't.

It makes me cringe when people say they use Gore>Ravage.

Use your other skills!!!!

I use ravage if I am about to run out of rage.

It makes me cringe when people say they use Gore>Ravage.

Use your other skills!!!!

I use ravage if I am about to run out of rage.

 

Ravage used with Gore is a very big hitter, why would this make you cringe?

And yes, i know that for PvP, ravage is pretty dicey.