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Why do people still guard healers in flashpoints?


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Honestly, as a tank, it's to stop the inevitable complaining i get from other group members. If i put it on anyone but the healer, someone will always protest. I got tired of explaining time and time again about the purpose of guarding reducing aggro threat...yada yada. I had many a healer refuse to move until i guarded them.

 

so ill throw it on the healer, and if i do a good enough job at tanking i don't even have to worry about guard. In the end, only time I'll guard a dps is if they' happen to be regularly stealing aggro from me

Edited by shyninja
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It's just a general misunderstanding of mechanics by an uncountable number of players. Though, in the end it ultimately doesn't matter who gets if the tank can hold aggro. When people try to guard healers in ops though, that's unacceptable.
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It's just a general misunderstanding of mechanics by an uncountable number of players. Though, in the end it ultimately doesn't matter who gets if the tank can hold aggro. When people try to guard healers in ops though, that's unacceptable.

 

With all ops? Or are there certain fights where it's acceptable to guard the healer?

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With all ops? Or are there certain fights where it's acceptable to guard the healer?

 

There are instances, when it's acceptable but they're fairly few and between. One such situation is passing a guard on a healer while Kephess' red circle targets them, to reduce the damage they take by 5%.

 

That's a different reasoning though. Many tanks in FP queues think that guarding a healer will make monsters aggro them less.

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There are instances, when it's acceptable but they're fairly few and between. One such situation is passing a guard on a healer while Kephess' red circle targets them, to reduce the damage they take by 5%.

 

That's a different reasoning though. Many tanks in FP queues think that guarding a healer will make monsters aggro them less.

 

The only time anyone ever guards me is during the 2nd phase of TFB. And even then, it's only for the first 30 seconds of that phase.

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Guarding is often misunderstood in this game.

 

guarding mechanics

You can guard people for different reasons. Either to reduce aggro output or to reduce incoming damage.

A very common misconception is that you take damage if your guarded target takes damage. This however is only true for PvP. Just read the tooltip very closely.

 

Generaly a guard on dps to reduce aggro has only use in the 1st 10-15 seconds after a pull. After the initial burst your taunts will have stuck aggro on you like glue. Just try it out. Stop attacking when a boss is on 50% HP. I showed my friends during a hammerstation run that my aggro would be enough while doing nothing from 50% HP on.

 

Since most opsfights require tankswaps and taunting I would advice to guard a person for the damagereduction (may even be your fellow tank).

 

Flashpoints

I always startoff to guard the healer if I dont know the skills of the 2 dps. I'd rather wait and see who will make my life as a tank difficult during trashpulls. Bossfights I tend to guard the squishiest person since dps won't rip of me.

 

Opses

Only bosses where you really should guard dps are:

- TfB Kephess (very very twitchy after a pillar knockdown)

- TfB the terror (1st phase = a *****)

- Scum Titan (during burnphase only, I guard the person taking most damage or swapguards to the lowest HP)

- Olok 1st phase

 

The rest you should guard the squishiest persons or the person who will most likely take more damage.

During TfB DG NiM I'm allways guarded by my fellow tank. You may lose aggrogeneration, this is very easy to overcome and not essential AT ALL. You taunt often often to glue Ciphas and Kelsara to you.

 

My closing statement:

I wish that people would react less ridiculous about guarding. Placing a guard on someone isnt black/white and is always in a state of flux.

@ OP: We guard healers because there is not always a suitable target to guard yet

Edited by CommunityDroidEN
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I agree with most of your post, except this part:

 

I showed my friends during a hammerstation run that my aggro would be enough while doing nothing from 50% HP on.

 

I don't want to start a flame-war here, but if this is true then they are lousy DPS and / or you have a huge gear advantage. Try that with any competent DPS, and they'll rip aggro off you after 6 seconds.

 

During TfB DG NiM I'm allways guarded by my fellow tank. You may lose aggrogeneration, this is very easy to overcome and not essential AT ALL. You taunt often often to glue Ciphas and Kelsara to you.

 

I've never heard of that tactics before. Can you explain it further? Which tank guards the other? The one starting on Ciphas guards the Kelsara tank? (I am really curious about this).

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I agree with most of your post, except this part:

I don't want to start a flame-war here, but if this is true then they are lousy DPS and / or you have a huge gear advantage. Try that with any competent DPS, and they'll rip aggro off you after 6 seconds.

 

Its ok :)

I dont know about the dps output, my friend was on a gunslinger alt. I was tanking with abradram (fully 72 kitted with setbonus). I always go stand up the boxes to rangetank the fight. I spam my ranged abilities and harpoon. I also taunt off cd. These taunts make sure that I get a headstart.

 

I've never heard of that tactics before. Can you explain it further? Which tank guards the other? The one starting on Ciphas guards the Kelsara tank? (I am really curious about this).

 

Basicly you should guard the tank who starts on Ciphas. He will tank Kelsara for the longest period of time.

 

We run TfB NiM with 2 vanguard tanks. Heres what we do currently:

- I start off the fight on Ciphas while my friend starts on Kelsara.

- I storm+stockstrike Ciphas and then turn to dps Heirad

- I tank Ciphas for about 10 seconds, Ciphas will jump to mid and I (AoE)taunt over Kelsara

- After about 25 seconds tanking Kelsara the 1st lightningfield occurs

- after the field I taunt Ciphas again

 

Lightningfield positions are fixed for the tanks and we let the bosses come to us.

 

What we also do is kiting Kelsara. If you are fast enough you will not receive any melee attacks nor voltalic slashes. PvP'ing and kiting marauders and juggs pays off here :p

Last try i used the hybrid spec (basicly full tactics in tankstance) for 30% AoE damage reduction. This also seems to work well.

 

I know that healers and dps also are taking a ******** of damage. Our parses however showed that 50% of all damage taken was tankdamage.

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Too many people not using aggro reduce. Hell I am playing a dps with one of the highest openers ingame (around 7k dps initial) and I don't steal aggro too often just aggro reduce after the first part of the rotation and then on cd and you're set. It is too easy. (Indeed you will steal aggro if the tank is total crap..)
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@fire-breath:

Guarding a Tank on TFB NiM can work for some groups. It depends a lot on your setups. For first phase, we normally guard the persons that take the most damage from lightning field and could be killed by heirad afterwards.

For the second phase and third phase, i think it's viable to guard a tank.

 

Guarding dps should because of aggro problems should normally not be important. As an assassin i can generate about 50k threat in the first 10 seconds (don't know about other tanking classes). Even when melee dps is then pulling more then 5,5k dps in the first 10 seconds (range dps would even need 6,5k dps) you still have 2 taunts to easily get back on top of the aggro table.

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Guarding dps should because of aggro problems should normally not be important. As an assassin i can generate about 50k threat in the first 10 seconds (don't know about other tanking classes). Even when melee dps is then pulling more then 5,5k dps in the first 10 seconds (range dps would even need 6,5k dps) you still have 2 taunts to easily get back on top of the aggro table.

 

With string of lucky crits I have seen 8-10k for 20-30 secs on my slinger. But it doesn't happen that often. I do think it's worth to guard combat sentinel at the start of the fight especially if you are starting with inspiration, adrenal, relic etc. I had once unlucky string on TWH NiM when my 4 first attacks on my shadow missed/got resisted and I had to burn the taunt and then lost it again after second taunt and it was a wipe. Happened to me only once in last couple of weeks. Still better to guard then be sorry later ;) I always guard squishest person when aggro is non issue like Op IX or Dreadguards. So usually a sage (heal or DPS).

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I would just like to point out that in lowbie flashpoints as a healer I always insist on getting guard from the tank. For 2 reasons.

 

1. The tank is usually not highly skilled and/or does not have all of their proper abilities necessary to control the pulls throughout the FP. Thus chaos ensues and as a healer I inevitably have to fend off adds for myself, lowering my ability to heal.

 

2. The DPS in the group are not generally high quality players. Most often they are f2p and have no idea who to target first (always going for the toughest opponents, instead of the weakest first) or just don't have a good grasp of their new toon.

 

Being a skilled healer, I generally am able to heal smoothly enough to DPS as well. When the tank is not controlling the FP and the DPS are both focusing the Champion in the group, all eyes turn to the healer. And the worst part is no one seems to notice or care. For those reasons I would always recommend guarding your healer from the beginning, and only switching guard if a DPS proves to be competent enough to steal aggro. It's a l2p issue no doubt, but guarding your healer can ease that pain while your frustration builds behind your mediocre group.

 

I would also argue that this is the proper form in 55 FP's especially if you don't know the other players you get matched with. But I would hope by 55 as a DPS you understand proper kill orders.

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I find this hilarious, I've played all three tanks since launch. Just started 55 on my Sniper a few weeks ago. Now that i'm 2/3's 72's I laugh every single FP the tank gaurds the healer and I'm tanking the mobs the whole FP. Hell I kited Kephess SM in TFB in the first phase one week cause the tank was clueless.

 

Tanks put your guard on a DPS. The majority of tanks are terrible, esp. in GF. I use FP's and SM OPS to practice agro generation. Typically in these I wont use taunts or guard just to make myself better. Only twice in about 2 months of pugging on 2 tanks in FP's and SM Ops I've honestly had to use a guard cause the DPS knew how to play.

 

What I find mind boggling is the amount of tank's esp PT's the pull with the AoE taunt. Now like I said I've only tanked since launch so, I assumed other tanks knew how to play. Well they don't. Almost every PT I've seen will open with Explosive dart then aoe taunt and Jet Charge in, if I choose to drop and Orbital Strike, anything that's not dead turns to me.

 

So tank's here is a pro tip- Before blowing your AoE taunts leap/sprint in get 3-4 Aoe abilities that hit all the mobs then use your AoE taunt, please and thank you.(for a PT it'd be Jet Charge>Rocket Punch(gold/elite target)>Flame Sweep>Flame Sweep> Rail Shot> Flame Thrower(pref. procced)>Aoe Taunt) . My sniper is squishy and my agro drop doesn't always help :D

Edited by wetslampigduex
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With string of lucky crits I have seen 8-10k for 20-30 secs on my slinger. But it doesn't happen that often. I do think it's worth to guard combat sentinel at the start of the fight especially if you are starting with inspiration, adrenal, relic etc. I had once unlucky string on TWH NiM when my 4 first attacks on my shadow missed/got resisted and I had to burn the taunt and then lost it again after second taunt and it was a wipe. Happened to me only once in last couple of weeks. Still better to guard then be sorry later ;) I always guard squishest person when aggro is non issue like Op IX or Dreadguards. So usually a sage (heal or DPS).

 

8-10k for 20-30 seconds on a Operation Boss?! Not a chance at all. Probably you get that number if you hit 5 targets with your orbital, but 100% not on a single target. With my sniper i parse about 3100 on dummy and i have a maximum of 4k-4,5k dps after 20-30 seconds.

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What I find mind boggling is the amount of tank's esp PT's the pull with the AoE taunt. Now like I said I've only tanked since launch so, I assumed other tanks knew how to play. Well they don't. Almost every PT I've seen will open with Explosive dart then aoe taunt and Jet Charge in, if I choose to drop and Orbital Strike, anything that's not dead turns to me.

 

So tank's here is a pro tip- Before blowing your AoE taunts leap/sprint in get 3-4 Aoe abilities that hit all the mobs then use your AoE taunt, please and thank you.(for a PT it'd be Jet Charge>Rocket Punch(gold/elite target)>Flame Sweep>Flame Sweep> Rail Shot> Flame Thrower(pref. procced)>Aoe Taunt) . My sniper is squishy and my agro drop doesn't always help :D

 

I don't disagree but as a functional matter, groups like to cc and they like to cc enemies with specific names on trash pulls, rather than the enemies on the farthest left or farthest right. That's where the aggro situation starts going south as a tank. Try vanguard tanking without ES, SG, and MV or shadow tanking without Force Breach and Force Push. I think earlier on, tanks in the know should have been pushing back against excessive cc use.

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@fire-breath:

Guarding a Tank on TFB NiM can work for some groups. It depends a lot on your setups. For first phase, we normally guard the persons that take the most damage from lightning field and could be killed by heirad afterwards.

For the second phase and third phase, i think it's viable to guard a tank.

 

Definetly a good option indeed

 

Guarding dps should because of aggro problems should normally not be important. As an assassin i can generate about 50k threat in the first 10 seconds (don't know about other tanking classes). Even when melee dps is then pulling more then 5,5k dps in the first 10 seconds (range dps would even need 6,5k dps) you still have 2 taunts to easily get back on top of the aggro table.

 

Hmm ... 50k threat is tricky. Yesterday I did a TfB NiM on my slinger where I ripped of our vanguardtank in the 1st few seconds. I used my attackadrenal, serp assault proc and inspire. In 10 seconds time I generated 54k threat. Thats with a guard and with a bugging surrender (which I will report as a bug in a seperate post).

 

@ the guy laughing at tanks who guard healers first:

How would you suggest determining which dps rips the most aggro? HP? no option, could be high endurence mods. High gear? he could be not very skilled.

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Why not let the tank decide who to guard since they are doing the guarding and furthermore do we have the right to tell someone how to play? No.

 

If they are accomplishing the fp or op does it matter? No. The mission was a success

 

At the end of the day this is just a game and therefore should be fun.

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8-10k for 20-30 seconds on a Operation Boss?! Not a chance at all. Probably you get that number if you hit 5 targets with your orbital, but 100% not on a single target. With my sniper i parse about 3100 on dummy and i have a maximum of 4k-4,5k dps after 20-30 seconds.

 

I didn't have opportunity to experiment with pulling aggro on operations bosses but in FP's I can see that numbers if I pre-cast flyby and pop relic/adrenal. Then it starts dropping rapidly at stays at around 4k for a while. Probably on operation's boss it will be slightly lower due to resist chance. Maybe it's a bug but it's what torparse metter showed a few times.

 

Anyway my point is it is not really possible to pull aggro as ranged if tank knows what he is doing unless you try to do it on purpose.

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Definetly a good option indeed

 

 

 

Hmm ... 50k threat is tricky. Yesterday I did a TfB NiM on my slinger where I ripped of our vanguardtank in the 1st few seconds. I used my attackadrenal, serp assault proc and inspire. In 10 seconds time I generated 54k threat. Thats with a guard and with a bugging surrender (which I will report as a bug in a seperate post).

 

@ the guy laughing at tanks who guard healers first:

How would you suggest determining which dps rips the most aggro? HP? no option, could be high endurence mods. High gear? he could be not very skilled.

 

On your parse its 12 seconds for 54 k threat. (and actually starting combat 8 seconds after the tank started which i didnt count in either) As a rdps you would need 130% of the tanks threat to rip aggro of him. Even without a guard that would be less then 50k threat in 10 seconds.

I don't know how much threat vanguard tanks can dish out in the very first seconds, but i never have problems with threat in nim Content (as assassin) when guarding our mdps (we don't run NiM content with more then 2 mdps).

On rare occasions (when some of my attacks in the very beginning missed) i have to use my single target taunt.

 

@Azrael: I agree with you, rdps shouldn't be able to rip aggro from a tank.

Mdps (from my experience, especially marauders in their burst spec) can rip aggro from you, but you can either guard them and use your taunts.

Edited by THoK-Zeus
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Point taken. Alltough its actually 110% for me since I'm scatterbombing which places me within the 4 meters range. Unless I'm mistaken 130 is at above 4 meters range.

 

But yes, Amen to let the tank decide who he guards in flashpoints, just have a good time even if the guard might be suboptimally placed

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My level 24 guardian has no aoe threat, no aoe taunt absolutely nothing. I will guard the healer because when I leap in 5 mobs and do my thing, if I lose aggro, the first one to be butchered is the healer. So reducing his threat by 25% is something to my advantage.

 

 

At endgame, tanked all content in both 8 and 16, I will of course put the guard on the highest damage dealer on bosses and back on healer on trash. Tanking 101 I am afraid. I also saw a post here saying that if you guard someone at Kephess, during the dreadguard bomb, as a tank you take some of the damage. This is not correct. Damage reflected within 15 meters is a pure pvp tribute of the guard mechanic. The exception in PVE where damage gets redirect is, of course, environment damage received while guarding that person. This is redirected, mob and boss damage is not. Run a test, let someone who is guarded get aggro and see if you share the damage. You will not.

 

 

Furthermore, in PVE guard has a 30m effect to lower threat and not a 15 m effect. I ran some tests at The final boss in TFB and this proved the case. Yogi and BooBoo also are a good example when back in the days guarding a ranged damage dealer and you , as tank, moving to 30m would still keep his threat lower.

Edited by Leafy_Bug
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