We're also getting a 5 second duration buff to TA (Awesome!) and a 14% damage increase to Hidden Strike (along with 1.5 seconds CD reduction [?] and cost reduced by 2.) Overall, 2.6 should be fun for Concealment.

Where did you get this information from? I didn't see it in Eric's post...

Where did you get this information from? I didn't see it in Eric's post...

Data mining revealed some unannounced changes:

Smugglers/Imperial Agents:

Upper Hand/Tactical Advantage's buff duration increased from 10 to 15 seconds.

Shoot First/Hidden Strike had their energy cost decreased by 2, cooldown increased by 1.5 seconds, and had their damage increased by ~14%.

Gunslinger/Sniper PvP 2pc/4pc Set Bonuses got swapped.

XS Freighter Flyby/Orbital Strike is now a 2.5 second cast that costs 10 Energy with a 45 second cooldown. It's coefficient also got reduced by ~62%.

Troopers/Bounty Hunters:

Pulse Generator/Prototype Flame Thrower talent now requires High Energy Cell/High Energy Gas Cylinder

These datamines always seem half correct when they pan out, but im just judging what they said about the data mine from the 2.0 release. A lot of stuff was correct, but some of it was just way way off. Ill wait till im on the pts to draw my conclusion.

Well the PTS is a test server so it's perfectly normal to expect the proposed changes to vary slightly before being rolled out. Hopefully these changes will stick though.

Someone do some napkin math and work out the numbers on these buffs?

Data mining revealed some unannounced changes:

 

Smugglers/Imperial Agents:

Upper Hand/Tactical Advantage's buff duration increased from 10 to 15 seconds.

Shoot First/Hidden Strike had their energy cost decreased by 2, cooldown increased by 1.5 seconds, and had their damage increased by ~14%.

Gunslinger/Sniper PvP 2pc/4pc Set Bonuses got swapped.

XS Freighter Flyby/Orbital Strike is now a 2.5 second cast that costs 10 Energy with a 45 second cooldown. It's coefficient also got reduced by ~62%.

 

Troopers/Bounty Hunters:

Pulse Generator/Prototype Flame Thrower talent now requires High Energy Cell/High Energy Gas Cylinder

Sweet, my operative will actually be wanted in raids now! Orbital Strike, well, none of my Sniper/GS classes were MM or Engi, so this nerf doesnt affect me! and thank christ skank tank will be gone, that was the bane of my existance...

Note that the crit buff on Rolling Punches isn't unalloyed bonus, we're losing 6% flat alacrity buff to get 6% flat crit chance.

This means (assuming 100% uptime on RP) you're no longer hitting 6% faster - or rather, no longer getting 6% redcution in the GCD between your attacks - which implies a 6% reduction in DPS. The 6% crit chance buff is only going to cover that if you're doing better than 100% bonus damage on crit - anyone got Surge up to that? No. Only on Shoot First, Back Blast and now Sucker Punch with talents, and the rest of our abilities sitting around 75%.

So the switch from alacrity buff to crit chance buff implies a *reduction* in DPS, where we see bigger hits but further apart. Chances are you won't be able to feel the slowdown in attack speed and will jus see Big Numbers flash more frequently.

Anyway, my point is: yes, I like the crit chance buff, but if we're getting any increase in overall damage it isn't from this,as the Rolling Punches change is probably an overall DPS nerf.

Sweet, my operative will actually be wanted in raids now! Orbital Strike, well, none of my Sniper/GS classes were MM or Engi, so this nerf doesnt affect me! and thank christ skank tank will be gone, that was the bane of my existance...

Operatives since 2.0 had 2 totally raid viable specs in medicine and lethality. Well and there was Invinc who almost can convince you that concealment is viable

The bigger problem was always to convince people to not want you as healer only.

If there will be Orbital nerf, i will remain to be seen by how much the deeps of snipers will go down. Yet for PvE so far those operative that pull the really high numbers usually found ways to include Orbital into their rotation as well, so it probably will be dps loss for us as well.

Btw i want the combat sents zen for operatives... 30% alacrity increase, it already looks funny on sents on maras... just imagine those knives and punches on steroids

and im sorry, but if a operative opens on you and you are a anything but a tank or wear heavy armor then you should die. that's how it is.

not sure if retarded or...no, actually i'm pretty sure you are retarded. What's next, TOR downgraded to pen and paper RPG?

Sorry but if I'm more skilled than an operative opening on me I shouldn't die just because I'm playing another class.

Someone do some napkin math and work out the numbers on these buffs?

All very rough estimates, with margin of error dependent on individual playstyle and gear.

datamined 2.5.2 changes:

1) 14% buff to Shoot First = +1.8% DPS

2) 62% reduction in Flyby coefficient and loss of fourth tick = -5% DPS

Depends how much you used Flyby (I was getting about 7% of PvP damage from it which might be high), but the combination of taking an axe to its damage PLUS switching the GS/Sniper set piece bonus so the extra FFB/OS tick is on the 4pc (i.e. Scrapper/Conc Ops will never take it, anotther 25% off) kills Flyby/Orbital damage, I reckon about 73% down in all. You will no longer use it as a damaging ability. This means you'll use something else instead, so actual DPS won't be 5% down because of this nerf, but it's a real kick - no flyby and then continue doing something else any more, and time to grind a new set piece.

2.6 changes

1) Scrappy boosts BW, QS and BB by 5% from 4% = +1.0% to each of these; +0.3% overall

2) Flying Fists to 100% proc chance on Sucker Punch = +6.1% to SP+FF; +1.0% overall

3) Turn the Tables from 2%/4% to 3%/6% boost to SP and FF = +2.0% to SP+FF; +0.3% overall

4) Sawed off boosts BB by 5% from 4% = +1% to BB; +0.14% overall

5) Underdog boosts SP crit damage by 30% instead of Tendon Blast's = 5.2% to SP; +0.8% overall

6a) Gaining 6% crit chance from Rolling Punches = +4.0% overall

6b) Losing 6% alacrity from Rolling Punches = -5.8% overall

2.6 total = +0.74 %

However, this underestimates the benefits. The calculation is based on the assumption that everything else, including playstyle, remains the same. This won't happen. Sucker Punch has had a series of buffs, such that it's much stronger (20% or so) and more efficient with the 100% Flying Fists proc. Similarly the fall in DPS from the FFB/OS nerf is overstated because you'll change your ability choices to mitigate.

Also, the loss in DPS from losing Rolling Punches' alacrity buff is a big hit, but I feel it might be exaggerated here (though most people fail to recognise the benefit they were getting from it). With the boost to crit rating we're going to see the horrible critless opening burst less frequently.

Bioware have made Flyby/Orbital really bad for DPS Scos and Ops, to the point of uselessness, while turboing Sucker Punch/Laceration and giving some nice all round buffs to other abilites we use as a melee. None of them seem ridiculously OP, I'm sad to say. The crit buff is the best, but to get it we lose the alacrity we never noticed we had.

Anyway, hope that helps give people some perspective on the changes, even if the numbers themselves are pretty rough.

6% alacrity means NOTHING... To reduce 0.1sec on the GCD you need AT LEAST 8% alacrity.

A marauder playing Carnage has 30% alacrity while using Berserker, they can reduce the Ravage cast from 3.0sec to 2.3sec. 30% alacrity = 0.7secs. So for an Operative, 6% alacrity really means NOTHING, 6%crit is way, way better.

6% alacrity means NOTHING... To reduce 0.1sec on the GCD you need AT LEAST 8% alacrity.

A marauder playing Carnage has 30% alacrity while using Berserker, they can reduce the Ravage cast from 3.0sec to 2.3sec. 30% alacrity = 0.7secs. So for an Operative, 6% alacrity really means NOTHING, 6%crit is way, way better.

Crit doesn't compete with alacrity. The fact that you didn't know that kinda destroys the credibility of everything else you said.

Crit doesn't compete with alacrity. The fact that you didn't know that kinda destroys the credibility of everything else you said.

When did he state it did compete? Calculated Frenzy gives us 6% alacrity for 15 seconds and he just explained how useless that is and how much better it will be with 6% critical chance instead.

Crit doesn't compete with alacrity. The fact that you didn't know that kinda destroys the credibility of everything else you said.

Yeah cuz, something tells me YOU don't know how to compare two different stats. I'll take 6% crit chance over 6% alacrity ANY DAY. I'd take it over 20% alacrity...alacrity sucks plain and simple. Unless we're talking 30% - 40% reduction in cast times and GCD, it's just not worth it in PvP. Maybe to the pve crowd...where boss battles go on and on and on and a few % improvement spread out matters. In pvp as a concealment if you're not done and over with the fight in about 10 to 15 GCD's, you're not going to win anyway. In fact, you're probably dead or re-stealthed.

overall the idea is true about Crit > alacrity, however we are talking concealment operative here, you guys are far overestimating an useless 6% crit buff and underestimating a great nerf from alacrity, that alacrity was the small regen / GCD buff that made the difference, now regardless of 100% CS, the energy is just as bad to control, it just force you to do endless spam of CS as long as CD is up, eventually making you starve at some point at CS + AB/CD for 2 rifle shots that totally destroy the CS regen making it just the same as it was before.

the nerf on orbital strike is a huge dps lost on both specs, for a rookie concealment op might be an increase because most people cant control its energy, but in reality is just dps lost and burst lost.

the +3 seconds on CD totally destroy lethality rotation, i dont know why they have to touch that, however is a change that "doesnt" affect what we had, i am still parsing higher with 3 sec than 6, just by the fact that 90% of the time i have to clip that last 3 sec for your WB + cull set up.

now the problem with these changes is, concealment has too many filler options without OS and with CS procs, and you have nothing to fill, basically forcing you to rifle shot on an awkward situation that u often used orbital or pretty much was required, the difference is before ih ad 65 energy < 2 sec GCD on shiv, i had to rifle shot, eventually that plus alacrity helped pushing my rotation to being stable for what comes next.

now half the time i am stuck with 65-75 energy < 2-3 sec GCD on shiv, 1 TA (without proc available) and nothing to use, this doesnt force me to rifle shot because shiv is not 1 GCD away, it is 2, so it forces me to overload shot, which then forces me to 2x rifle shot and delay shiv, so my best option is to Rifle shot 2x and waste energy otherwise ill delay ability use, bottom line, being more stable on RNG is good however the orbital strike nerf destroyed the rotation, and the filler spots for abilities thanks to the Energy regen on CS are often rifle shots, because the energy calc. with the 105 new energy is akward and either wil starve you or waste useful energy, no much room for something good to use.

as far as lethality the same, no orbital is a huge lost, also now with 5 more energy, believe it or not, is a complete new game, energy is all messed up as you have more room for fillers like overload shots, however using an overload shot where u had to use rifle shot before is risky if you dont prox fatality after. also using the 6 second dart buff, you have two option, either waste WB debuff from cull to dots which is a dps lost, or delay WB 2 GCD for redot which is a dps lost too, because CGrenade ticks on use, so its not a dps lost, but Dart doesnt, so the super easy steady rotation we had with those 3 second become a complete mess .

bottom line, this is a nerf hidden with a buff, conceal ill do higher dmg and no rng, but still "average" i mean 3750-3800, not 4k or 4.1k like pyro merc as we were expecting bioware when they buff something usually Become FoTM, and lethality itself will parse maybe a bit lower than that, but being way easier to use, having more randged abilities, still managing energy much more better and C.grenade AoE dot, will probably still be ahead of concealment as far as utility in the raid. anyways i just did like 10-15 parses, maybe i just was in a bad run, maybe when i test it more or in live ill come up with a 4100 parse, but i doubt it.

Note that the crit buff on Rolling Punches isn't unalloyed bonus, we're losing 6% flat alacrity buff to get 6% flat crit chance.

 

This means (assuming 100% uptime on RP) you're no longer hitting 6% faster - or rather, no longer getting 6% redcution in the GCD between your attacks - which implies a 6% reduction in DPS. The 6% crit chance buff is only going to cover that if you're doing better than 100% bonus damage on crit - anyone got Surge up to that? No. Only on Shoot First, Back Blast and now Sucker Punch with talents, and the rest of our abilities sitting around 75%.

 

So the switch from alacrity buff to crit chance buff implies a *reduction* in DPS, where we see bigger hits but further apart. Chances are you won't be able to feel the slowdown in attack speed and will jus see Big Numbers flash more frequently.

 

Anyway, my point is: yes, I like the crit chance buff, but if we're getting any increase in overall damage it isn't from this,as the Rolling Punches change is probably an overall DPS nerf.

For a properly played Operative dps rotation, the only thing alacrity is good for is the increased energy regen. The rotation is played using shiv -> GCD -> GCD -> GCD -> shiv so even if there is some alacrity there is no room to fit in another move without delaying shiv which is a massive dps loss.

for those that didn't note official patch notes :

Operative

General

Lowered the cost of Hidden Strike to 15 energy (down from 17 energy), increased its cooldown to 9 seconds (up from 7.5 seconds), and increased the damage it deals.

Increased the duration of Tactical Advantage by 5 seconds (now 15, up from 10).

Concealment

Surgical Strikes now increases the damage dealt by Shiv, Overload Shot, and Backstab by 5% (up from 4%).

Collateral Strike now has a 50/100% chance to trigger when Laceration is used (up from 35/70%).

Culling now increases the damage dealt by Laceration and Collateral Strike by 3/6% (up from 2/4%) and recovers 4/8 energy whenever Collateral Strike damages an enemy target (down from 5/10).

Waylay now increases the damage dealt by Backstab by 5% (up from 4%).

Meticulously Kept Blades now additionally increases the critical damage dealt by Laceration by 10/20/30%, but no longer increases the critical damage dealt by Sever Tendon.

Calculated Frenzy no longer increases Alacrity when triggered, but now increases ranged and tech critical chance by 2/4/6% instead.

Lethality

Corrosive Microbes is now a single-point skill (down from 2), but still increases the chance for Corrosive Dart to tick twice when it deals damage by 25%.

Lethal Injectors is now a 2-point skill (up from 1), each point still increases the duration of Corrosive Dart by 3 seconds (so 2 points in the skill now increase the duration of Corrosive Dart by a total of 6 seconds, granting 2 additional ticks of damage).

(I would quote it , but don't know how) , anyway those changes seem pretty decent, even though 1% dmg buff for backstab is literly a slap in the face, not to mention that 14% buff to hidden strike (not sure if confirmed, somebody posted it here).

I'm downloading PTS atm to test things out but I'm afraid the things that we wanted to most probably - being able to use HS w/o stealth (on sneak , or something , w/o knockdown ofc) - will always be only a dream..

I believe those changes will bring us closer to deception assassins pvp-wise, but something tells me that we'll still be Glass-booby guns instead of glass cannons... who knows.. in a couple of hours I should have PTS ready.. meanwhile if anyone can post some testing from warzones on PTS, it would be appreciated. (and don't bother theory crafting - it never worked)...

1) 14% buff to Shoot First = +1.8% DPS

2) 62% reduction in Flyby coefficient and loss of fourth tick = -5% DPS

 

2.6 changes

1) Scrappy boosts BW, QS and BB by 5% from 4% = +1.0% to each of these; +0.3% overall

2) Flying Fists to 100% proc chance on Sucker Punch = +6.1% to SP+FF; +1.0% overall

3) Turn the Tables from 2%/4% to 3%/6% boost to SP and FF = +2.0% to SP+FF; +0.3% overall

4) Sawed off boosts BB by 5% from 4% = +1% to BB; +0.14% overall

5) Underdog boosts SP crit damage by 30% instead of Tendon Blast's = 5.2% to SP; +0.8% overall

6a) Gaining 6% crit chance from Rolling Punches = +4.0% overall

6b) Losing 6% alacrity from Rolling Punches = -5.8% overall

 

2.6 total = +0.74 %

Hate to say it mate but this is PURE theorycrafting.. nothing more ... I don't do parses because I honeslty don't care for them as well as I don't care for entire pve , that being said, for me it's obsolete.. what I care about is TTK a player... I wonder if that decreased or not..

http://www.torparse.com/a/548406/time/1389400911/1389401164/0/Overview so far

by any chance mind posting your gear ? (stats are enough + set bonuses and build) ty

so laceration gets damage buff and re applies tac 100% of time, i will take it

Laceration procs Collateral Strike 100% of the time now, but it doesn't reapply Tactical Advantage 100% of the time. Tactical Opportunity isn't changing, there's still a 10 second internal cool down.

by any chance mind posting your gear ? (stats are enough + set bonuses and build) ty

dulfy.net my guide there has the exact same spec i use even with changes... gear thsi one was 124 crit, i had a 3888 with 430 crit, so im still testing... DF relics both SA and FR, BiS everything else but 1 implant.

6% alacrity means NOTHING... To reduce 0.1sec on the GCD you need AT LEAST 8% alacrity.

A marauder playing Carnage has 30% alacrity while using Berserker, they can reduce the Ravage cast from 3.0sec to 2.3sec. 30% alacrity = 0.7secs. So for an Operative, 6% alacrity really means NOTHING, 6%crit is way, way better.

Wrong.

The buff is up all the time, not a temporary burst like Berserker. With 6% cut from GCD, in the same period of time you will do (100 / 94) -1 = 6.4% more damage because you can fit more attacks in (assuming no Alacrity on gear etc).

This is over a sustained fight. That is why losing the Rolling Punches alacrity is a DPS nerf. DPS = damage per second, i.e. sustained damage.

A 6% increase in crit chance only equates to an equal replacement of DPS if you are getting an average 100% bonus damage. You aren't. Therefore switching from alacrity to crit chance on Rolling Punches is a DPS drop.

In the short term, higher alacrity means you get your attack in first (assuming you're both hitting your GCDs), which is pretty good in a short fight.

Someone else posted later about Alacrity only helping regen. That is also wrong, because as noted above it cuts your GCD, which is my whole point.

Hate to say it mate but this is PURE theorycrafting.. nothing more ... I don't do parses because I honeslty don't care for them as well as I don't care for entire pve , that being said, for me it's obsolete.. what I care about is TTK a player... I wonder if that decreased or not..

TBH I'm not sure I'd dignify it with the term Theorycrafting. It's actually coming solidly from an empirical side, the observed ability usage of a massive sample (one, me) in SWTOR's known combat system.

So the guesses are made on the basis of: what if I did the same stuff I normally do in PvP, but these abilities coefficients, crit chances, etc., changed?

Note that I am not talking about parses. It's rougher than that because it's based on actual PvP fighting as recorded in combat logs, which is good in some ways but bad in others when you want to make estimates.

Wrong.

 

The buff is up all the time, not a temporary burst like Berserker. With 6% cut from GCD, in the same period of time you will do (100 / 94) -1 = 6.4% more damage because you can fit more attacks in.

 

This is over a sustained fight. That is why losing the Rolling Punches alacrity is a DPS nerf. DPS = damage per second, i.e. sustained damage.

 

A 6% increase in crit chance only equates to an equal replacement of DPS if you are getting an average 100% bonus damage. You aren't. Therefore switching from alacrity to crit chance on Rolling Punches is a DPS drop.

 

In the short term, higher alacrity means you get your attack in first (assuming you're both hitting your GCDs), which is pretty good in a short fight.

 

Someone else posted later about Alacrity only helping regen. That is also wrong, because as noted above it cuts your GCD, which is my whole point.

Wow, I can't believe you think 6% alacrity is better than 6% crit. But the changes are pretty much all buffs and the 30% surge on laceration is going to be huge. Just take a look at his parse and tell me you'd prefer the alacrity over bonus damage and crit overall. I'm almost 99% we'll see a 4k+ parse here soon. Not to mention all the other increases to damage overall, even a percentage or two does something, especially while piled on top of other huge buffs. I feel like we might see a slight change in the numbers but we'll see.