Jump to content

ETA on Advanced Class change?


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 5.9k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Yes, but look at some of the other posts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Those above are just a few I found while skimming through about five pages within this mess of a thread. As I said, and I'm not pointing you out as being for, or against it because you want it, I'm just trying to point out that this argument has gone on for over 420 pages and no matter which "facts" are presented on either side. I use the term "facts" loosely here since it's more opinionative than actual facts. These "facts" don't sway either side. They just start belittling, and berating each other because they don't see the other's point of view. It really doesn't matter where the overall decision goes.

 

The bottom line is this thread is going nowhere because the same arguments that are presented are being denied by the opposition. When that happens, how is there a reasonable discussion? Most of these posters state "Give me ONE reason it should/shouldn't happen! You can't!". So tell me TUXs, how can such an argument be settled without having the Devs get involved by stating whether or not it will happen? Is it the only way? I'm quite intrigued by what you think considering you are one of the one's who regularly posts constructive arguments on such topics in these forums. :)

 

There's reasonable discussion on gaming forums :eek:

 

But seriously, this is a hobby thread for a few posters now. Look at the majority of posts involved and it's a rather small name pool.

The thread drops down the pages and then some new poster resurrects it with the rather innocent 'This is a feature I'd like to see.' and then it's off to the ballgame again ;)

 

I half suspect this thread will only die off when the invested posters leave the game, a dev makes a statement one way or the other, the feature gets introduced or the servers shut down.

 

Beyond that and as long as it doesn't descend into personal attacks and name calling it's a little diversion that's harming no one. A little like an AC swap feature should it ever introduced :)

Edited by Vhaegrant
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's reasonable discussion on gaming forums :eek:

 

But seriously, this is a hobby thread for a few posters now. Look at the majority of posts involved and it's a rather small name pool.

The thread drops down the pages and then some new poster resurrects it with the rather innocent 'This is a feature I'd like to see.' and then it's off to the ballgame again ;)

 

I half suspect this thread will only die off when the invested posters leave the game, a dev makes a statement one way or the other, the feature gets introduced or the servers shut down.

 

Beyond that and as long as it doesn't descend into personal attacks and name calling it's a little diversion that's harming no one. A little like an AC swap feature would be if ever introduced :)

 

Yeah, I tend to agree with most of your points listed above. I'd prefer AC change doesn't happen, but it's not like I'll quit the game over that being implemented.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My hair color impacts your gameplay as much as my AC choice does.

 

Last I checked, I didn't talk about MY or ANYONE else's gameplay. FACT remains that one has an effect on gameplay and the other does not.

 

Either way, I'm still waiting for someone to explain how rerolling is that earth shattering really.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My hair color impacts your gameplay as much as my AC choice does.

 

That about sums it up.

 

There's no impact on anyone else if someone wants to switch their AC.

 

There's a possible minor impact on EA/Bioware's bottom line. Anyone who desperately wants to switch a Shadow to a Sage may potentially not play as long as they would if they had to re-level, but EA/Bioware have shown little concern at all about allowing people to speed their way through the game for cash.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Last I checked, I didn't talk about MY or ANYONE else's gameplay. FACT remains that one has an effect on gameplay and the other does not.

 

Either way, I'm still waiting for someone to explain how rerolling is that earth shattering really.

 

some people don't enjoy playing the same story twice, just like they don't reread books or rewatch movies.

some people have very limited time to play and rather than reroll, they might just leave the game all together for something that lets them play what they do enjoy. just to name a couple. just becasue you cannot relate personally - doesn't make it invalid.

 

above was a suggestion to make it $20, limit it to 3 changes per character, and add a one month cooldown before you can change back. I'd say that takes care of "flash of the month" concerns nicely AND potentially makes bioware some profit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My hair color impacts your gameplay as much as my AC choice does.

 

Would you also approve of base class swapping? For all intents and purposes, one AC is functionally different from another in terms of game mechanics. Stealth characters play enormously differently from say, a sniper/slinger. Mercs vs PTs are a ranged class as opposed to a melee class. So on and so forth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's a possible minor impact on EA/Bioware's bottom line. Anyone who desperately wants to switch a Shadow to a Sage may potentially not play as long as they would if they had to re-level, but EA/Bioware have shown little concern at all about allowing people to speed their way through the game for cash.

The effect to EA/Bioware's bottom line only applies if the player is a subscriber. With the hybrid model the length of time someone spends playing a character and not paying a subscription also has a minor impact on the bottom line.

 

Ideally what you want to achieve is a sense that time invested in any character you play is not wasted time. I would imagine the potential for a preferred/f2p player to use the AC swap function to remain playing their character is higher than them going back to level one and levelling up an alt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

some people don't enjoy playing the same story twice, just like they don't reread books or rewatch movies.

 

Assuming novelists or film directors are not to be held responsable, let alone address it, why should Bioware?

 

If some people do not enjoy playing the same storyline more than once, it's their prerogative, not something the game should address per se.

 

some people have very limited time to play and rather than reroll, they might just leave the game all together for something that lets them play what they do enjoy. just to name a couple. just becasue you cannot relate personally - doesn't make it invalid.

 

Last I checked, this is a game.

 

Having in mind it's a game, it's something which SHOULD be perceived as a hobby. Being a hobby, it's not a full-time job or the Olympic games, where people are in a hurry to reach the finish line I believe.

 

above was a suggestion to make it $20, limit it to 3 changes per character, and add a one month cooldown before you can change back. I'd say that takes care of "flash of the month" concerns nicely AND potentially makes bioware some profit.

 

Doubtful. Fairly sure there would be those who would complain over such silly restrictions, just like we have people who complain over the fact they can't change their AC midgame.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would you also approve of base class swapping? For all intents and purposes, one AC is functionally different from another in terms of game mechanics. Stealth characters play enormously differently from say, a sniper/slinger. Mercs vs PTs are a ranged class as opposed to a melee class. So on and so forth.

 

different specs are functionally very different, with different abilities and priorities. healer plays very differently from a tank plays very differently from dps.

 

are you against talent respecs too now?

 

base class swapping is a different ball game, not because of mechanics as much as it is because of the stories and companions. there are too many complex flags involved that make base class unique. to the point where even mirror class swapping would be inadvisable, even if you would be playing the same exact spec and wouldn't need to relearn or regear anything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would you also approve of base class swapping? For all intents and purposes, one AC is functionally different from another in terms of game mechanics. Stealth characters play enormously differently from say, a sniper/slinger. Mercs vs PTs are a ranged class as opposed to a melee class. So on and so forth.

 

Me personally? I honestly don't care at all. Do I think it would be a good addition to the game? Not especially...the Class is much more complex than AC - Classes are a whole different story and companions. AC's aren't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would you also approve of base class swapping? For all intents and purposes, one AC is functionally different from another in terms of game mechanics. Stealth characters play enormously differently from say, a sniper/slinger. Mercs vs PTs are a ranged class as opposed to a melee class. So on and so forth.

 

It's a non-competitive game that is super-easy to level in, no matter what class you play.

 

If you're cool with the concept of the Cash Shop, I don't see any difference between buying swag, swapping classes, or even buying an "instant max level" button. The Cash Shop is all about offering instant gratification vs attaining these things through game play. Same difference if its armor, a mount, a crystal or your class/level.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

different specs are functionally very different, with different abilities and priorities. healer plays very differently from a tank plays very differently from dps.

 

are you against talent respecs too now?

 

base class swapping is a different ball game, not because of mechanics as much as it is because of the stories and companions. there are too many complex flags involved that make base class unique. to the point where even mirror class swapping would be inadvisable, even if you would be playing the same exact spec and wouldn't need to relearn or regear anything.

 

In a DPS spec, a merc can still heal. In a tank spec, an assassin can still stealth and maul. Each AC can focus on one particular thing at any given time with their spec, but they're still capable of using many of the abilities that are the core of their other trees(though that may be suboptimal).

 

For base class swapping, you have mechanical difficulties with story flags. For AC swapping, you have mechanical difficulties with gearing. Juggs/Guardians use heavy armor, marauders/sents do not. Mercs/mandos don't use generators like vanguards do. There will be technical complications in either situation.

 

 

It's a non-competitive game that is super-easy to level in, no matter what class you play.

 

If you're cool with the concept of the Cash Shop, I don't see any difference between buying swag, swapping classes, or even buying an "instant max level" button. The Cash Shop is all about offering instant gratification vs attaining these things through game play. Same difference if its armor, a mount, a crystal or your class/level.

 

I actually find that to be an internally consistent argument(as opposed to the idea that we should be able to choose what functions we want for characters in some circumstances, but not in others).

 

 

Me personally? I honestly don't care at all. Do I think it would be a good addition to the game? Not especially...the Class is much more complex than AC - Classes are a whole different story and companions. AC's aren't.

 

 

What if the class story and companions were retained, but you simply switch mechanics? Have a mercenary dual-wielding vibroswords.

Edited by Vandicus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Assuming novelists or film directors are not to be held responsable, let alone address it, why should Bioware?

 

If some people do not enjoy playing the same storyline more than once, it's their prerogative, not something the game should address per se.

 

 

 

Last I checked, this is a game.

 

Having in mind it's a game, it's something which SHOULD be perceived as a hobby. Being a hobby, it's not a full-time job or the Olympic games, where people are in a hurry to reach the finish line I believe.

 

 

 

Doubtful. Fairly sure there would be those who would complain over such silly restrictions, just like we have people who complain over the fact they can't change their AC midgame.

 

novelists and directors come up with new stories to enjoy - that take a LOT less time to enjoy than leveling the same class - and movies and novels have an ending, while playing an MMO doesn't really, as you don't just abandon a character at 55, usually, you get them to 55 so that you could continue to play them at 55. but the comparison was NOT used to compare media, but rather illustrate the mindset of a person who doesn't enjoy repetitive stories.

 

last I checked its a game as well - its a hobby. and some people have limited time to enjoy their hobbies. and you are telling them basically, that they are SoL when it comes to this particular hobby, just because they made a choice before having all the information (how the class plays) and have to start over... and spend hours and hours and HOURS doing something unenjoyable, just to try the other AC. and this being a game and a hobby? WHY exactly AC is such serious business that it MUST be a permanent choice?

 

and there will always be people who complain. that's a fact of life. but those restrictions are a compromise between having NO option and having SOME option. but you'd rather have nothing that something in a middle, it seems.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I must be lucky in the PUGs I join. My DPS Powertech (Advanced Prototype) has not once been asked to swap out to Tank. (something I could do at a moments notice with no cost, and I even have a near maxed set of tanking gear as well)

 

I don't understand why it would be an issue with AC swapping when it doesn't appear to be an issue with current specialisation.

 

The worst scenario I've encountered is when a member of the PUG volunteers to go Tank or Healer just to get the FP/ OP off the ground. All the times this has happened in my experience has been initiated by the player and never demanded by the group.

 

"Switch to [that other AC] now or get kicked" scenario doesn't happen now because there's no way to change AC. If it was allowed then most of the players in groups want to optimize the run: get most effective combination of ACs to complete FP/Operation as fast as possible. Actually it already happens in operations, the main reason why GF doesn't pop up for Operations ever.

Edited by Halinalle
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would you also approve of base class swapping? For all intents and purposes, one AC is functionally different from another in terms of game mechanics. Stealth characters play enormously differently from say, a sniper/slinger. Mercs vs PTs are a ranged class as opposed to a melee class. So on and so forth.

 

I know I'm going to sound a hypocrite here, but in SWTOR's current game design I would not be an advocate for Class swapping.

 

SWTOR launched on the power of the Class story, this personal journey where the choices you make makes a difference. How well they delivered on that promise is a further matter of debate.

 

A Sith Warrior's story is very definitely not the story of the Bounty Hunter or the Jedi Knight.

The Class story holds within it the full identity of the character from appearance customisation options to the core companions you get to keep.

There is also a heavy technical issue to overcome with the resetting of data flag tracking as you progress through a story (the reason you can get a species change but not a gender change as story data is different for gender, romance options etc...)

 

If SWTOR had been less tied to the Class story and a less linear game I would have no problem with a potential system that allowed you to focus on different roles at different times of your play history.

Start off as a Republic Trooper but reject the orders of your generals and strike out for personal wealth as a Bounty Hunter before discovering a modicum of force sensitivity and the lure of the dark side in the Imperial slave pens that you are able to escape as a Sith Inquisitor before finally being redeemed by the Republic and ending your days as a Jedi Knight.

But, SWTOR is not really about the story YOU want to create with your character but about playing through the story Bioware want to tell.

 

However, to say that choosing to pick up two blast pistols (mercenary) instead of one (powertech) as a Bounty Hunter is some how beyond the scope of reasoning and goes against everything MMOs stand for is slightly baffling to me ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In a DPS spec, a merc can still heal. In a tank spec, an assassin can still stealth and maul. Each AC can focus on one particular thing at any given time with their spec, but they're still capable of using many of the abilities that are the core of their other trees(though that may be suboptimal).

 

For base class swapping, you have mechanical difficulties with story flags. For AC swapping, you have mechanical difficulties with gearing. Juggs/Guardians use heavy armor, marauders/sents do not. Mercs/mandos don't use generators like vanguards do. There will be technical complications in either situation.

 

assassins still you lightning and shock and dots, as those are class features, NOT AC

 

all bounty hunters can use sticky grenades and death from above and flame thrower and a few other things. its base class features, not AC.

 

so... it may be suboptimal, but they can STILL use those abilities. mechanical difficulties with gearing are absolutely negligible. only knights/warriors are subject to different armor rating if they are NOT wearing adoptive armor, they can just move the mods around. if they ARE wearing adoptive armor, they just need to get a new offhand. higher level you are, the cheaper empty moddable offhands get. it takes FAR more effort to regear between tank and dps or healer and dps than it would to regear a dps that used to be a vanguard and is now a commando for example.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

assassins still you lightning and shock and dots, as those are class features, NOT AC

 

all bounty hunters can use sticky grenades and death from above and flame thrower and a few other things. its base class features, not AC.

 

so... it may be suboptimal, but they can STILL use those abilities. mechanical difficulties with gearing are absolutely negligible. only knights/warriors are subject to different armor rating if they are NOT wearing adoptive armor, they can just move the mods around. if they ARE wearing adoptive armor, they just need to get a new offhand. higher level you are, the cheaper empty moddable offhands get. it takes FAR more effort to regear between tank and dps or healer and dps than it would to regear a dps that used to be a vanguard and is now a commando for example.

 

Merc healers to Merc dps all benefit from the same stats, which means easier regearing than the example you had. My point had less to do with regearing, and more to do with the issues of invalid items in slots and whatnot. We're talking a lot of technical difficulty either way. Why not allow players to use the mechanics from other classes?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Switch to [that other AC] now or get kicked" scenario doesn't happen now because there's no way to change AC. If it was allowed then most of the players in groups want to optimize the run: get most effective combination of ACs to complete FP/Operation as fast as possible. Actually it already happens in operations, the main reason why GF doesn't pop up for Operations ever.

 

no, the main reason why ops groupfinder doesn't pop ever, is NOT because of min maxing AC's . its because random pugs in general can be more hit than miss. the only time you have people using it nowadays is when they have mostly complete group and just need to feel in a few spots. most of the time - people just make up manual pugs in general chat, becasue at least that way they can control whom they take along. and even then, primary concern is NOT a specific AC as much as experience and general level of gear. I never ONCE seen a pug look for a specific healer or specific tank and very rarely do they specify melee vs ranged dps. as for guilds? good ones don't demand that you switch AC. they only ask if you can switch "ROLES" if you previously indicated availability to do so. bad guilds? are already bad and unnecessarily picky because they refuse to accept that the reason they cannot clear content quickly is NOT their composition.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

However, to say that choosing to pick up two blast pistols (mercenary) instead of one (powertech) as a Bounty Hunter is some how beyond the scope of reasoning and goes against everything MMOs stand for is slightly baffling to me ;)

 

Two pistols instead of one is a cosmetic difference, not a mechanical one. The difference between Powertech and Mercenary is like the difference between Juggernaut and Mercenary, one is a melee class, the other is ranged. If we were to be allowed to switch between melee and ranged classes, and stealth and non-stealth classes, I'd very much like to be allowed to use set-ups from other classes as well, since we've decided that the division is more or less arbitrary.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For AC swapping, you have mechanical difficulties with gearing. Juggs/Guardians use heavy armor, marauders/sents do not. Mercs/mandos don't use generators like vanguards do.

 

Non issue.

My Powertech in Tank spec (Shieldtech) uses a completely different set of gear and offhand than he does in DPS spec (Advanced Prototype).

 

You go out and you get a second set (or more) of gear. It really isn't that difficult :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

novelists and directors come up with new stories to enjoy - that take a LOT less time to enjoy than leveling the same class - and movies and novels have an ending, while playing an MMO doesn't really, as you don't just abandon a character at 55, usually, you get them to 55 so that you could continue to play them at 55. but the comparison was NOT used to compare media, but rather illustrate the mindset of a person who doesn't enjoy repetitive stories.

 

Which does NOT address at all the original problem(?), which is the fact some people may dislike rereading or rewatching whatever content you're referring to. Special emphasis is to be given to the word "some".

 

Either way, I do agree that the comparison with other kind of media is not the best nor the easiest really.

 

last I checked its a game as well - its a hobby. and some people have limited time to enjoy their hobbies.

 

Indeed.

 

and you are telling them basically, that they are SoL when it comes to this particular hobby, just because they made a choice before having all the information (how the class plays) and have to start over... and spend hours and hours and HOURS doing something unenjoyable, just to try the other AC. and this being a game and a hobby?

 

This is untrue, since people are told REPEATEDLY that their decision is final.

 

WHY exactly AC is such serious business that it MUST be a permanent choice?

 

It's not so serious business per se but rather the question that arises with it: Where does it end?

 

If people are not satisfied with a particular choice they've done, should they be entitled to change it? Should they be entitled to repeat - for example - a full planetary story arc, in whatever given storyline, because they regret having done something they shouldn't? Where's the consequence factor?

 

The moment everything is allowed to be changed, I guess the game pretty much becomes meaningless, both from a storyline and gameplay perspective.

 

Again, people have the ability to reroll. If they honestly believe it's not worth the bother, then I guess this is not the game they're looking for.

 

and there will always be people who complain. that's a fact of life. but those restrictions are a compromise between having NO option and having SOME option. but you'd rather have nothing that something in a middle, it seems.

 

And who defines that middle ground? You? Me? The OP? Can you even be certain that an everlasting compromise could even be achieved? I sincerely doubt it.

Edited by Darth_Wicked
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Non issue.

My Powertech in Tank spec (Shieldtech) uses a completely different set of gear and offhand than he does in DPS spec (Advanced Prototype).

 

You go out and you get a second set (or more) of gear. It really isn't that difficult :)

 

The issue isn't one of regearing, its one of technical side. The argument being made was that swapping class mechanics is too technically difficult, but even swapping ACs would have technical difficulties. Namely illegal gear in slots and skill leveling.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


×
×
  • Create New...