Jump to content

P2W is bad?


Zunayson

Recommended Posts

*** happened with this thread?

 

Reading this makes my eyes bleed, and it seems like the Grind-2-Win people are still refusing to understand the viewpoint of the other side...

 

 

First, stop calling it P2W, P2W is when you get gear which you cannot get by playing the game normally.

 

Second, I do not understand why you Grind-2-Win people still keep posting stuff like this. We all already get it, for you, the "challenge" of the game is for you to keep playing the game a lot.

For some of you, the reward is getting a +5 to your stats, because then you finally get to feel like you managed to accomplish something in your life.

For others, you simply suck at the game and the reward is that you can finally be competitive in the game because of your gear advantage.

If G2W was removed from the game, then you know that you would instantly lose the only advantage you have, which is time, and you know that in a Skill-2-Win system it will be impossible for you to keep up with other players.

 

For the Skill-2-Win people, the challenge of the game is in learning to become better at it, and the reward is either overcoming that challenge, or just simply having fun while going for it.

As long as Grind-2-Win is in the game, it is bad for all S2W people, because regardless of what the quality our gear is, there are always people with either better or worse gear than what we have.

 

I won't bother making more replies to this thread, have a nice day.

 

Dude grinding is what keeps people playing. It's that whole "carrot on a stick" mentality that people enjoy and entices them to keep playing. If there was no gear progression, people wouldn't play that nearly as often. RPGs are about char progression of some kind. You take that away, and it's no longer an RPG.

 

Look at GW2 and their spvp where everyone has equal gear. Not many people participate in it at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 147
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Fact is- the pvp in this game is not appealing to people as is. PvP queues plummeted after 1.2, and other than marauders this game has recieved half a year of nothing but negative criticism- while the people who like it defend it by saying 'if you don't like it, leave'.

 

Well, guess what- we're now going f2p because everyone left, we're down to 8 servers that are all still considerably more dead than my medium-heavy server was before 1.2 in a list of dozens, f2p is not going to entice people to come back- you think people are going to love being stomped in recruit blues- because remember you can't even wear purple gear as a f2p (which, btw- ipso facto makes this game a pay to win, that can't even be debated against when gear that lets you last more than two hits is virtually out of your reach as a free to play).

 

You can continue to hold to the assumption that hundreds of hours of pvp before you are on equal footing, gross imbalance, and the absurd abundance of CC is a good thing for pvp- or you can look at the facts that prove this game's pvp is nearly dead- as is the game.

 

I am mind boggled that people are still defending blindly BW's awful choices and STILL running out with the 'don't play if you don't like it' as this game sits on its death knell and a f2p model that already looks like one of the most atrocious ones in a north american mmo ever.

 

At some point BW, and biodrones, you have to come to the conclusion that your arrogant way of thinking- that people just want to play this game so badly that they'll put up with exceedingly steep requirements, brutal locked features for f2p (hide head slot... quickbars.... seriously? You're making UI options part of your money making scheme?), and a dev crew that never communicates and when they do they either haven't listened to a thing that's been said or seem to be going off of feedback from months ago. (so, hopefully they'll get to the post 1.2 feedback by January).

 

Why not instead make a game that is fun to play for p2p and f2p, where being on equal footing in pvp isn't an issue- pve is fine because you can pick a dungeon to progress in, where you fight enemies at your level, but pvp regardless of your gear you're fighting NM mode operations every time. Make pvp about ranking, gear appearance, titles, pets, mounts, etc.... Make standard pvp free and make f2p buy the right to go to tournaments- where ultra rare gear looks, crystals, etc... are rewards.

 

You have tried the 'grind through being one shot for hundreds of hours' path- it failed. Maybe it's time to actually do something- rather than continue to hope that your consumers will suddenly have a change of heart and enjoy losing without a chance for months to get gear that'll probably have just become obsolete.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

*** happened with this thread?

 

Reading this makes my eyes bleed, and it seems like the Grind-2-Win people are still refusing to understand the viewpoint of the other side...

 

 

First, stop calling it P2W, P2W is when you get gear which you cannot get by playing the game normally.

 

Second, I do not understand why you Grind-2-Win people still keep posting stuff like this. We all already get it, for you, the "challenge" of the game is for you to keep playing the game a lot.

For some of you, the reward is getting a +5 to your stats, because then you finally get to feel like you managed to accomplish something in your life.

For others, you simply suck at the game and the reward is that you can finally be competitive in the game because of your gear advantage.

If G2W was removed from the game, then you know that you would instantly lose the only advantage you have, which is time, and you know that in a Skill-2-Win system it will be impossible for you to keep up with other players.

 

For the Skill-2-Win people, the challenge of the game is in learning to become better at it, and the reward is either overcoming that challenge, or just simply having fun while going for it.

As long as Grind-2-Win is in the game, it is bad for all S2W people, because regardless of what the quality our gear is, there are always people with either better or worse gear than what we have.

 

I won't bother making more replies to this thread, have a nice day

 

TLDR = I'm butt hurt cause people beat me, and gear is a convient excuse. A good player in Battlemaster can (and usually will) beat an average player in War Hero..

 

^ Fixed that for you.

 

That being said, yes I've been using the term Pay to Win loosely, but once again it's a slippery slope. If you'd read what I said about Perfect World, you'll know little things like exp boosters, small ammounts of gear, etc... can grow into a monster money gobbling system.

 

As for your little tirade about gear... I think the gear grind is stupid myself. Yet, I can comprehend that Progression based PvP is how MMO's operate. I'm not going to gimp myself by not completing the tasks (I'll stop using the word challenges, since people can't seem to understand that) to progress. More over, the point still stands:

 

Games have tasks to complete for a reward. All games have this, no matter what the genre or type.

 

If you can do something outside the game to get the reward (paying for it, hacking, etc...) then the game becomes pointless. You no longer have to do the tasks to get the reward. Thus, Paying for Gear/Win/Whatever is bad.

 

=P and you really should read what you write before you post, you sound butt hurt.

Edited by Doomsdaycomes
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll just stop posting in this thread because it's ridiculous where it has deteriorated to. I'll make one more rational argument against play to win in the hope that it might convince you of just how utterly ridiculous P2W is:

 

1. I subscribe. Therefore I pay to play.

2. I pay for gear to skip grinding/content/challenges (call it whatever you want)

3. By paying for gear i skip said content and therefore not play the game.

4. Therefore I pay (twice!) NOT to play the game.

 

What's the next thing you want? An option to have a level50 character immediately available for purchase with rank100 valor and 2500 rating with 100.000 million credits decked out in min/maxed Elite Warlord gear on the character creation scene because you don't want to waste time leveling them up to 50?

 

A skill that automatically kills any enemy because you don't want to waste time learning and practicing a proper rotation?

 

Access to all the achievement based titles/speeders/pets because you cannot be arsed to complete the required flashpoints/operations/warzones and obtain the required rating?

 

Why not just pay 100 dollars and skip to straight to the credits without ever stepping foot on those annoying planets or doing those annoying quests? Much faster.

 

I'll say it for one last time: I have a relatively well paying job (I'm no Bill Gates but I have a home, car, etc.). I'm not asking for special treatment at my workplace because I'm good at playing SWTOR. I'm not asking for special treatment in SWTOR because I'm good at my job. Simple as that. Two distinct fields of life that have 0 impact on each other. If you want instant success at PvP, where everyone has the same gear, then GW2 is your game. If you want instant success at PvP, where you don't need any special tactics and learning beyond pressing a few buttons, then CoD or BF is your game. SWTOR is an MMO game. MMO games are the most time-consuming of all games, which means that either you play it and enjoy it or move on to another game that rewards you more for less effort.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why not instead make a game that is fun to play for p2p and f2p, where being on equal footing in pvp isn't an issue- pve is fine because you can pick a dungeon to progress in, where you fight enemies at your level, but pvp regardless of your gear you're fighting NM mode operations every time. Make pvp about ranking, gear appearance, titles, pets, mounts, etc.... Make standard pvp free and make f2p buy the right to go to tournaments- where ultra rare gear looks, crystals, etc... are rewards.

 

There are many ways to fix pvp and those are good ideas. Put in a proper match making system, a Recruit bracket at 50, offer more incentive for rateds, fix class imbalance, do away with fotm classes, fix resolve and maybe even try a separate solo queue for a few weeks?

 

These are very good ideas that if implemented would improve PvP immensely for both new casuals and hardcore veterans. Leaving everything unchanged but allowing players to simply buy gear would stress the existing problems even further.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My problem with this is - why do you have to pay in the first place? If gear equality is what you are after then why not just redesign the game based on that concept? Implementing this idea will make it look like bioware is very underhanded creating a self inflicted gear inequality just for people to pay to equalize it. I hope you understand where I'm getting at.

 

This is an interesting twist. However, gear progression is pretty common in PvP and MMOs with PvP. I don't think anyone would accuse BW of purposefully creating a gear gap to encourage the purchase of PvP gear through the store. Although, if the grinding for the gear became purposefully more difficult over time by design, I could see the argument gaining some plausibility.

 

This would be the case, especially in retrospect, as the initial gear grind has become progressively easier while the min/max gear grind has become more difficult. It's a slippery slope though, as Doomsday has identified. If BW does introduce items of this sort into the Store, while they may not be P2W initially, one can see how things could easily drift down that road with the wrong turn/decision.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. PvP here has no progression in PvE. Yes, let's grab our tionese gear and get facerolled in HM TfB until we get enough Sympathy Commendations to get our Hazmat Dread Guard gear. Occasionally, there may be an easy HM FP boss that we'll be on par with. Once I get my dread guard gear after about 4 months, I'll be able to be on par with the toughest, and faceroll through anything else.

 

The above is not true progression. Progression is greems playing HM FPS to PROGRESS to OPS to get Columi to be able to play things of the sort HM OPS... etc. Lv 1s getting to lv 2s. Being forced to play lv 2 content/ A level 50 playing lv 1 content does not progress. However, in swtor a wh player gets the exact same reward from out skilling a wh player and out gearing a recruit player.

 

2. Gear progression is NOT central to an RPG. Maybe some MMOs, but not RPGs. RPG Definition is a ROLE PLAYING GAME. All this pretty much means is to create your own character. Even basic RPGs from Dungeons and Dragons and Pokemon to complex Mass Effect and Dragon Age type things don't pin you high level content from low levels or vice versa (see above)! The difference between LV 10s in greens playing full BM 50s in pre 1.1 is indeed different from Recruit 50s playing full E/Wh 50s. However, there is still an imbalance.

 

People pre 1.1 whined for brackets because there was an imbalance. Their logic was that

Imbalance => Not fun, stupid, fix, etc.

The problem is, there is still an imbalance, so by the same logic the PvP gear needs fixing. Either from brackets or removal altogether. Brackets does basically the same thing (So long as you can make it so they can't change their gear in a wz), and actually makes it PROGRESSION. Since you will be playing A to get to B to get to C, instead of playing A B and C.

 

RPGs should be about strategically gearing up, not out-gearing your opponent. Big difference, there, and if you don't know it, it's the difference here:

 

Strategically gearing up:

Do I want X endurance and Y strength or X + 1 endurance and Y - 1 strength?

Out gearing:

Do I want X endurance and Y strength or X + 1 endurance and Y + 1 strength? Hmmm, no reason to take the former, it's worse all around!

 

It's like letting tanks have the same mainstat as DPS and heals, but still having more endurance. There is no trade off, it's simply better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. PvP here has no progression in PvE. Yes, let's grab our tionese gear and get facerolled in HM TfB until we get enough Sympathy Commendations to get our Hazmat Dread Guard gear. Occasionally, there may be an easy HM FP boss that we'll be on par with. Once I get my dread guard gear after about 4 months, I'll be able to be on par with the toughest, and faceroll through anything else.

 

The above is not true progression. Progression is greems playing HM FPS to PROGRESS to OPS to get Columi to be able to play things of the sort HM OPS... etc. Lv 1s getting to lv 2s. Being forced to play lv 2 content/ A level 50 playing lv 1 content does not progress. However, in swtor a wh player gets the exact same reward from out skilling a wh player and out gearing a recruit player.

 

2. Gear progression is NOT central to an RPG. Maybe some MMOs, but not RPGs. RPG Definition is a ROLE PLAYING GAME. All this pretty much means is to create your own character. Even basic RPGs from Dungeons and Dragons and Pokemon to complex Mass Effect and Dragon Age type things don't pin you high level content from low levels or vice versa (see above)! The difference between LV 10s in greens playing full BM 50s in pre 1.1 is indeed different from Recruit 50s playing full E/Wh 50s. However, there is still an imbalance.

 

People pre 1.1 whined for brackets because there was an imbalance. Their logic was that

Imbalance => Not fun, stupid, fix, etc.

The problem is, there is still an imbalance, so by the same logic the PvP gear needs fixing. Either from brackets or removal altogether. Brackets does basically the same thing (So long as you can make it so they can't change their gear in a wz), and actually makes it PROGRESSION. Since you will be playing A to get to B to get to C, instead of playing A B and C.

 

RPGs should be about strategically gearing up, not out-gearing your opponent. Big difference, there, and if you don't know it, it's the difference here:

 

Strategically gearing up:

Do I want X endurance and Y strength or X + 1 endurance and Y - 1 strength?

Out gearing:

Do I want X endurance and Y strength or X + 1 endurance and Y + 1 strength? Hmmm, no reason to take the former, it's worse all around!

 

It's like letting tanks have the same mainstat as DPS and heals, but still having more endurance. There is no trade off, it's simply better.

It would somewhat fix the problem if they had level 50 brackets based on valor rank. The downside though would be longer queue waits, unless they implemented cross server WZ's. And it wouldn't have to be anything complicated, just level 50 valor rank 1-69 bracket, level 50 valor rank 70+ bracket and leave everything else essentially the same. People would still complain about how bad Recruit gear is, but at least they would only be going up against people in full Battlemaster as opposed to full War Hero.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If they remove pvp gear (expertise) pve players will instagib pvp players unless of course you can grind the exact same gear in pvp that you can in pve. And of course you forget the two extra tiers of pve gear they implemented (iirc there's 4 endgame tiers for pve and 2 for pvp.)

 

Recruit doesn't count as a tier of itself. It's free and thus baseline gear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It would somewhat fix the problem if they had level 50 brackets based on valor rank. The downside though would be longer queue waits, unless they implemented cross server WZ's. And it wouldn't have to be anything complicated, just level 50 valor rank 1-69 bracket, level 50 valor rank 70+ bracket and leave everything else essentially the same. People would still complain about how bad Recruit gear is, but at least they would only be going up against people in full Battlemaster as opposed to full War Hero.

 

your solution is flawed.

 

I'll grind full wh gear on my main, ship it to my fresh lvl 50 with whom I never pvp'ed with = valor 0 guy running around in full warhero armourpieces. I would be min maxed wh ages before being forced to the high valor bracket.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2. Gear progression is NOT central to an RPG. Maybe some MMOs, but not RPGs. RPG Definition is a ROLE PLAYING GAME. All this pretty much means is to create your own character. Even basic RPGs from Dungeons and Dragons and Pokemon to complex Mass Effect and Dragon Age type things don't pin you high level content from low levels or vice versa (see above)! The difference between LV 10s in greens playing full BM 50s in pre 1.1 is indeed different from Recruit 50s playing full E/Wh 50s. However, there is still an imbalance.

 

 

Gear progression is not central to an RPG, but char progression is. And the easiest way to make char progression at max level is through gear.

 

When I play Starcraft 2, Street Fighter, or the other skill based games out there, I don't go on their forums and whine about how there's no leveling/gearing up for my characters. So I don't understand why people go to a RPG game's forum and whine about char progression.

Edited by Smashbrother
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gear progression is not central to an RPG, but char progression is. And the easiest way to make char progression at max level is through gear.

 

When I play Starcraft 2, Street Fighter, or the other skill based games out there, I don't go on their forums and whine about how there's no leveling/gearing up for my characters. So I don't understand why people go to a RPG game's forum and whine about char progression.

 

I'm complaining about the fact that there is little progression, first of all, because it take so long.

 

Secondly, I've already made my point. EVERY. SINGLE. GAME. I can think of (And you as well) excluding PvP has fair gear and/or character progression. Conclusion? PvP is ****ed up w/ gear. I don't see how you can even possibly begin to think about refuting this obvious fact.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm complaining about the fact that there is little progression, first of all, because it take so long.

 

Secondly, I've already made my point. EVERY. SINGLE. GAME. I can think of (And you as well) excluding PvP has fair gear and/or character progression. Conclusion? PvP is ****ed up w/ gear. I don't see how you can even possibly begin to think about refuting this obvious fact.

 

Look I've got no problems introducing matchmaking based on gear in this game, but in order to do that we'd need more players and x-serve Qs. Until then, we have to suck it up.

 

Or BW can allow us to purchase gear on all our alts once we've unlocked it with our main. That works too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

MMo-PvP and You: A Guide to Growth

 

Here OP, I think you may need to read this, particularly the section called "Where does PvP start?"

 

While I agree that the gear grind/progression doesn't make sense in a Wz balance sense, to understand the way MMO PvP is different from say a shooter or a RTS you need to step back and realize we're talking completely different skill sets then just twitch-reflex and a general know-how.

 

If you actually read it great, if not... can't say I'm too surprised.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Skill is a stretch since my general definition of skill is the execution of strategy through physical ability. I really mean strategy when I say skill because really - pushing buttons every 1.5 seconds is not hard. Skill in an MMO comes from strategically gearing up, knowing the class, rotation (and what not), and teamwork. Example: In FPS games, the strategy is pretty basic; Aim for the head, usually you know which side someone's gonna pop out of if they run behind cover. It's your physical execution of the aiming that is your skill. Here in MMOs, it's less about the execution of ideas and more so about the creation of ideas - class mastery and what not.

 

Class mastery is obtained through time but not statistically static because of it. Example: It's physically impossible to get war hero the first day WH gear was released. It simply could not be done. Was the skill cap raised? Not necessarily. Maybe no abilities or tweaks were made to any of the classes in that particular patch (even though I know that statement is a gross lie...).

 

The point is that gear is a direct correlation with time with no real correlation with skill, just time and dedication. The ability to strategically gear up, knowing your class, and teamwork, are, once again, obtained through time, but affected by skill. That is, while your fight begins at character creation, it's affected by your skill, not time played. To put it a different way, you're saying how the grind is in a different way - grind up, play asap, play more than them, you'll have better stats. No, what I'm advocating for is to play so you get good. MMO PvP should test strategy, maybe even a bit of skill. The idea is that someone who's naturally more coordinated and intelligent can play for 2 months and be skillfully on par with one who's played for 6 months. My "/played" or rather "/skill" is directly affected by skill, regardless of when the character was made. Your "/played" is directly affected by time played, regardless of when the character was made, and so long as a gear gap large enough remains, is somewhat disregarding personal skill, as well.

 

Back to what I was saying - class mastery is directly affected by skill and strategy. Whilst practicing a normal sport or activity, you find that dedication and play time/practice do enhance skills. Substitute skill with talent, strategy, or whatever the activity measures as determining victory. The question arises of what is being determined in swtor? Player skill, or gear? Because gear is directly correlated with time played, you can substitute gear for time played (in this cause your "/played"), and then it sort of spirals downward from there.

 

In a normal sport, such as Tennis, time played is not being measured. Although time played does increase one's skill, it still has that "skillcap" or threshold that every person has - and that's what's being measured. Because let's face it, some people have genetics that make them stronger or faster than I am, whilst I may be more intelligent (No irl rerolls, so if they get fotm it sort of sucks for everyone else ._.).

 

The idea is that this personal skillcap afffects the measured performance skill as a function of time played - to put it another way, time played is more like your input while skillcap is the function, and lastly your performance based on your skill and time played. However, Personal skill in a real sport such as tennis works with the time played instead of simply working side by side like it does in swtor.

 

It can be noted that in SWTOR, one's personal skill does not work in conjuction, but with disjunction with time played - While skill does help, time is being measured as a completely separated entity - as gear (I've established that substitution of gear and time is valid, you can disagree...). In a real sport, they're together; skill is affected by time, but since skill is its own variable, a higher skilled personal is not required to play as long to yield the same results. Once again in swtor, one's time played, or "practice" is not for the sake of practice of skill, but for practice of time, and dedication, which is, honestly in my opinion dumb, since that's not really competition.

Edited by Zunayson
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

In a normal sport, such as Tennis, time played is not being measured. Although time played does increase one's skill, it still has that "skillcap" or threshold that every person has - and that's what's being measured. Because let's face it, some people have genetics that make them stronger or faster than I am, whilst I may be more intelligent (No irl rerolls, so if they get fotm it sort of sucks for everyone else ._.).

 

The idea is that this personal skillcap afffects the measured performance skill as a function of time played - to put it another way, time played is more like your input while skillcap is the function, and lastly your performance based on your skill and time played. However, Personal skill in a real sport such as tennis works with the time played instead of simply working side by side like it does in swtor.

 

Well, I'm glad you have (hopefully) dropped the G2W is equal to P2W argument. Now we're off topic of the orginal point, but down to the main issue.

 

As you mentioned with Tennis, time isn't measured but rather "skill." Time effects the level of skill, all the way up to a natural "skill cap." I couldn't agree more.

 

Yet I think you lost the point when you got to genetics. You compared genetics to what we would call "class" in this game, where as I would supply that your physical body in a real life sport is akin to your gear in an MMO. You and I may have the same basic reflex and same intelligence for strategy/tactics, but our bodies will differ. There are genetic traits yes... but the amount either one of us has prepared our bodies will highly influence our chances of winning. If you are a fit, active, and well nourished player and I am an overweight, out of shape, burger guzzling player, our genetics and basic reflex/intelligence no longer matters. Chances are, you will beat me. You will be able to go longer and demand more from your body. Health is a measure of time and the choices you made in that time.

 

Personally, I think BW shot itself in the foot by adding too many tiers and augmentations. The problem you're describing isn't gear exactly, it's the length of the gear gap. I don't think anyone would argue that recruit vs. augmented WH isn't even a contest, unless the WH is brain dead. Yet BM vs. WH is much more comparable, and augmented BM vs. augmented WH is competitive. I think progression can be good, and it provides rewards for completing tasks. The problem you have, is that the tasks take too long for your liking.

 

Edit: This isn't a jab at you, but it always amuses me when people say "any moron can grind." If anyone can do it, it really shouldn't be a problem. =P More importantly, those with skill will grind fasterm once they've hit the competitive part. 140 comm win is greater than > 80 comms lose.

Edited by Doomsdaycomes
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I honestly think all this crying about gear will disappear if BW just allows us to buy gear with credits once we've unlocked them on our mains. Gearing up one guy in WH is not difficult at all, and everyone should have to grind it out. However, gearing up 3 more alts is a pain in the ***. I know, I have 3 full WH chars, and a 4th that just hit 50.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
TBH I've never seen P2W on a scale such as SWTOR's, and I'm laughing at BW and EA for their greedyness.

 

Then you haven't seen many F2P games. I can think of three P2W items in game at the moment...the Pink Expertise Crystal and the two Spaceship Upgrade sets. Three items is large scale P2W? lol

 

Additionally, P2W items only make publishers money because players purchase them en masse. If players didn't consume P2W items so wholeheartedly, there wouldn't be any such items in any virtual store.

 

 

the amount of joy that comes to my heart when my post gets necrod a long with like 3 others <3

 

It's not that bad a necro tbh. The thread is only like a month old. heh

Link to comment
Share on other sites


×
×
  • Create New...