Vigilance is good - but not because of the DoTs. Focused Defense is great soft stunlock counter, and Vigilance, overall, is one of the most durable non-tank, non-healing specs. Mitigates a lot of damage if you have 2/2 Defiance/Unyielding.

 

Sin can counter Vigil's "massive burst" in several ways - Deflection (blocks master strike, OHS), Low Slash (interrupt MS), Resilience (eats Plasma Brand/Blade Storm, but granted, hard to time because Vigilance priorities are very flexible. Can still be used to clear DoTs to slip away), Cloak - deselect target, cancel channel (blocks Master Strike, even if DoTs will bring the Sin out of stealth - he still gets 20% damage reduction after stealth and increased force regen).

 

TL: DR - Vigilance is not a hard counter to Deception. It kills bad Sins, but good Sins have very good chances to come out victorious.

I can agree with that. I think it's situational if a sin and Vig Guardian are of equal skill.

I can agree with that. I think it's situational if a sin and Vig Guardian are of equal skill.

Would largely come down to luck, I think. If the (presumably bonus damage-heavy) Sin manages to crit a couple of procced Mauls early on, the odds are definitely in his favour. If the Guard successfully reflects a discharge combo during the first stunlock, he's the one on the proverbial horse.

Deception Assassin/Infiltration Shadow

 

Marauder is too easy to counter IMHO.

total BS because of Darth Maul, which was the character the class was based on.

The only class I have been able to win with vs. a (incredibly good) Deception Assassin is Saboteur Gunslinger, and it was only because it was in an area with no line of sight obstacles. The reason is because when you Hunker Down, it forces them to either eat all your uninterruptible damage, or vanish and reset the fight, in which case you both heal yourselves up to full out of combat (you can not be sapped while Hunkered Down).

Their sap-n-heal is one of the main reasons that makes stealthers so powerful in 1 on 1s and the 'slinger is the only one that can take that out of the picture without needing to burn their CC breaker. Not to mention that your stealth detection will stack up to 30 during this "fight reset" so if you stay in place they will not be able to get the drop on you from stealth again if you put the Incendiary Grenade in your blind spot. IIRC you can't Maul gunslingers unless you use a stun because they always face towards you (not sure on this one, though).

However, the Assassin can just respec to tank, put on a shield and beat the Gunslinger handily by deflecting all their attacks. Lol.

In the contrary, I would offer Jugg tank/veng hybrid, but it died with 2.0.

I rarely ever lost 1 vs 1 while defending a turret. each 9 sec sonic barrier, accuracy reductions, def chance was high, people would just miss their attacks. Now full def can hold turret for a ridiculus amount of time ofcourse not killing any one any time soon (if they would be forced not to run but to keep fighting, I guess it could kill eventually), but that's not their role.... some people think accuracy is a waste...

 

if they would add maras root to revage, vengence jugg would be a monster... literally.

IMO the most fearsome 1vs1 class in the history of SWTOR (not counting the old days, direct after the launch, balance still wobbly... where Op/Scoundrels were like... *shudders*) was the Jugg/Guardian; Defense/Immortal + Focus/Rage hybrid. I consider it lucky only a relative few people used this build, since the people I know who used it weren't the 'forum types' and would not disclose or share information much.

The basics would be Soresu for high damage reduction + defense + shield, offense-oriented gearing, use of two hard-stuns, use of 0-cost AoE slows, use of Force Sweep/Smash criticals, and two leap-type powers, two defensive CDs. Although in this case, the sweep/smash wasn't as powerful as full Shii-cho use, it still was reasonably strong attack.

You can imagine what the consequences would be like, when you are hard-stunned for a total of 8 seconds straight (if you had your CC breaker on cool), during which time you'll be hit with a 4~5k sweep/smash and a total of 6~7k damage master strike/ravage... during those days when everyone's HP was like 18k~19k. Not only were they strong in damage, but they also were strong in defense, as they had the basic levels of defense/shield, on top of a 12 second Saber Ward and a 10 second 40% flat damage reduction.

...

Ofcourse, like many OP builds, this also passed into history when mechanics changed

The basics would be Soresu for high damage reduction + defense + shield, offense-oriented gearing, use of two hard-stuns, use of 0-cost AoE slows, use of Force Sweep/Smash criticals, and two leap-type powers, two defensive CDs. Although in this case, the sweep/smash wasn't as powerful as full Shii-cho use, it still was reasonably strong attack.

<............>

 

Ofcourse, like many OP builds, this also passed into history when mechanics changed

Are you seriousing me? Shield? Pre-2.0? On what essentially is a DPS buildin DPS gear? Even hybrid Kinetic Shadows took foci for greater Force damage. Goes double for a smash build.

Are you seriousing me? Shield? Pre-2.0? On what essentially is a DPS buildin DPS gear? Even hybrid Kinetic Shadows took foci for greater Force damage. Goes double for a smash build.

Its not a dps build. Essentially its a 6:4 or 5:5 defense-focus hybrid, since back in those days there was hardly any skills in any of Jugg/Guardian trees that directly boosted or contributed to damage, and most of the damage component would almost solely depend on stats.

Therefore, as a trade-off to a teeney bit lower damage, the hybrid build gained 20% shield chance -- compare this to the contemporary mara/sent with around 5% defense chance and 0% shield. Also, skill investment from Defense tree boosted defenses a considerably higher than a contemporary shadow, so being able to use Soresu, get 6% increase in defense from Riposte, on top of the 20% shield chance was considered a worthy trade off.

The high point of this build was not necessarily about pure damage performance, which there were plenty others with much higher levels -- but rather about its versatility, and the ability to cram in massive damage by oneself when the opponent was stunned twice in a row.

Its not a dps build. Essentially its a 6:4 or 5:5 defense-focus hybrid, since back in those days there was hardly any skills in any of Jugg/Guardian trees that directly boosted or contributed to damage, and most of the damage component would almost solely depend on stats.

 

Therefore, as a trade-off to a teeney bit lower damage, the hybrid build gained 20% shield chance -- compare this to the contemporary mara/sent with around 5% defense chance and 0% shield. Also, skill investment from Defense tree boosted defenses a considerably higher than a contemporary shadow, so being able to use Soresu, get 6% increase in defense from Riposte, on top of the 20% shield chance was considered a worthy trade off.

 

The high point of this build was not necessarily about pure damage performance, which there were plenty others with much higher levels -- but rather about its versatility, and the ability to cram in massive damage by oneself when the opponent was stunned twice in a row.

Untalented, stat-less shield in Soresu was, pre-2.0, an overtime 5-ish% damage decrease over a specific, underrepresented damage category - weapon damage. Across SWToR patch 1.XXX, balance shifted, but the majority of the most threatening PvP damage was Force and Tech. Was it really worth it?

But I do agree that this build wouldn't be as Force-heavy - most of its damage would be white.

Untalented, stat-less shield in Soresu was, pre-2.0, an overtime 5-ish% damage decrease over a specific, underrepresented damage category - weapon damage. Across SWToR patch 1.XXX, balance shifted, but the majority of the most threatening PvP damage was Force and Tech. Was it really worth it?

Depends. How much is it worth if you have a 20% chance to parry each of someone's Master Strike/Ravage hits, and if that fails, still have a 20% chance to cut down each of the hits' damage by 20~30%?

Besides, if you remember the Defense tree before the max level increase, your real "business" in that tree was:

(1) the temporary shield granted through Blade Storm

(2) 6% increase in defense with Riposte (yes, it was 6% back then)

(3) the 2nd active defense power for 40% flat damage reduction

(4) Hilt Strike, the 2nd hard stun

IIRC, when you went upto Hilt Strike, that gave you just enough points left for you to go upto Singularity in the Focus tree, so investment in shield-related skills just happened along the way.

But I do agree that this build wouldn't be as Force-heavy - most of its damage would be white.

Mm.. more like "situation-heavy", if that makes sense, I guess.

It was sort of like the Smashers nowadays, except if you cutdown on about 20~30% damage from Smash, and move all that potential into defensive capacity, so its sort of a "perfect balance" between offense and defense, that's what it was like. In today's terms, it'd be sort of like a Smasher that hits for upto 6~7k damage at most, but can use two stuns, infinite spamming of slows, two defensive CDs, has Soresu level damage reduction, and has considerably higher shield/parry chance.

But I don't think I need to comment anything more about this.. since, like mentioned, it is history.

ve

Depends. How much is it worth if you have a 20% chance to parry each of someone's Master Strike/Ravage hits, and if that fails, still have a 20% chance to cut down each of the hits' damage by 20~30%?

<...........>

But I don't think I need to comment anything more about this.. since, like mentioned, it is history.

ve

Always felt that Soresu was just not worth it if you're not tanking, or messing up the enemy front line on purpose (and I'm generally a more defensive-minded player, mind you). With the awful Focus generation penalties it imposed on you, its only purpose was delaying the inevitable. At a certain point, I did run a somewhat similar hybrid, but I ran in Shii-Cho, used a generator, and used stuns, interrupts, cooldowns aggressively to mitigate incoming damage and open the enemy up for guaranteed damage spikes. Worked like a charm.

IMO best 1v1 dueler class is Veng Jugg/Vigil Guardian. Againts Deception Sins, I'm taking Vigil Guardian any day, any night.

You would do well to beware good snipers and lightning sorcs. Aside Vigilance, I play MM and Lightning (got a TK sage levelling, too, just because I love Lightning dynamics), and their mechanics permit to push the Vigilance Guard to his hard limit.

And don't tell me that "you eat them for breakfast". I also do - but the ones that I do usually don't count because they're pretty damn horrible. Same with Deception Sins. Bad ones fall quickly, good ones bleed me of all of my cooldowns for a relatively even footing.

Operative/Scoundrel Healer will take the cake every time 1v1...if we are talking about duels.

This.

1. Op Healer

2. Tank Sin

3. Deception Sin

4. Annihi Mara

5. Conc. Operative

6. Veng. Jugg

Those are the best. Some are better against some classes, some worse.

*Note* This is at EQUAL skill level. A bad Mara/Sin/Op can easily be beaten by a Jugg/PT/MErc/Sorc w/e

1. Op Healer

2. Tank Sin

3. Deception Sin

4. Annihi Mara

5. Conc. Operative

6. Veng. Jugg

 

Those are the best. Some are better against some classes, some worse.

 

*Note* This is at EQUAL skill level. A bad Mara/Sin/Op can easily be beaten by a Jugg/PT/MErc/Sorc w/e

The best support healer class and spec is also coincidentally the best 1v1 duelest? That's not broken at all.

I honestly feel that the deception assassin when played at top level is a better 1v1 class than the Op/scoundrel healer.

Its also the only class capable of beating a good op/scoundrel healer in a 1v1. But it does rely on crits or the fight could just stretch on too long and become attrition, which the OP healer build is best at.

That fight is also the most entertaining duel to watch.

The best support healer class and spec is also coincidentally the best 1v1 duelest? That's not broken at all.

that post was missing *in my opinion*

note he placed tank sin as 2? and veng jugg as 6?

aside, this was MELE list, mercenary and sorcs are hardly MELE.

that post was missing *in my opinion*

note he placed tank sin as 2? and veng jugg as 6?

 

aside, this was MELE list, mercenary and sorcs are hardly MELE.

Regardless, you would be hard pressed to find a Scoundrel Healer not in the top 3 of any Class/Spec Best Dueling list with most people putting them at 1 or 2.

1. Op Healer

2. Tank Sin

3. Deception Sin

4. Annihi Mara

5. Conc. Operative

6. Veng. Jugg

 

Those are the best. Some are better against some classes, some worse.

 

*Note* This is at EQUAL skill level. A bad Mara/Sin/Op can easily be beaten by a Jugg/PT/MErc/Sorc w/e

Shadow/Assassin tanks are as good in a duel as Infiltration/Deception? Don't get me wrong, Kinetic Combat is my favorite spec in the game. But I don't see how in the world you'll be killing healers in a post 2.0 environment, even in full DPS gear.

If there's a way to make it happen, I'm your eager student.

Shadow/Assassin tanks are as good in a duel as Infiltration/Deception? Don't get me wrong, Kinetic Combat is my favorite spec in the game. But I don't see how in the world you'll be killing healers in a post 2.0 environment, even in full DPS gear.

 

If there's a way to make it happen, I'm your eager student.

Against a healer? No, but I find Deception fairly easy to kite, and is really squishy. I find the Tank sin better against other DPS/tanks, but yeah, if you're looking to fight healers, Deception.

best 1 vs 1 class melee and overall is a vengeance jug or vigilance guardian..deception sin don't stand a chance against one who know how to play the class..having a fully conqueor min/max sin im speaking for experience..no other melee class or spec will give me trouble besides the jug and guardian..

they hit hard takes a crap load of damage and wear heavy armor..guardian probably wont win the fast fight but they have the skills to win the war..