...Bleeds area large portion of the damage, but they aren't the largest portion of it.

 

In my experience, bleeds are ~40% of our damage. There are two bleed-inflicting abilities - Deadly Saber & Rupture - and jointly they should be the largest portion. Individually, they are probably the 2nd and 3rd in terms of overall damage.

 

Also berserk, at most, is going to last for 12 ticks or around 6 seconds, assuming you they don't get cleansed or otherwise wasted. Having a decent amount of base crit will encourage more annihilation crits, which during many PvP skirmishes, will get more use and deal more damage than the bleeds with berserk being spammed...

 

Berserk last for 6 charges. Rupture tics every 1s while Deadly Saber tics every 1.5s. The maximum duration of Berserk is 9s (6 tics of Deadly Saber every 1.5s). The shortest duration assumes the bleeds from Rupture and Deadly Saber are both up and lasts for ~4s. Maybe I misunderstood something, but how did you come up with 12 tics and 6 seconds?

Keep in mind that Beserk only causes auto crits for 6s bleed ticks. That's not even enough to auto-crit one round of rupture and deadly saber. So, for the majority of the your bleed ticks, you won't be auto-critting. Therefore, a good amount of crit is very beneficial due to not only the extra heals, but the extra surge on bleed effects. Anything that boosts surge for abilities by a significant margin gives crit more weight.

Keep in mind that Beserk only causes auto crits for 6s bleed ticks. That's not even enough to auto-crit one round of rupture and deadly saber. So, for the majority of the your bleed ticks, you won't be auto-critting. Therefore, a good amount of crit is very beneficial due to not only the extra heals, but the extra surge on bleed effects. Anything that boosts surge for abilities by a significant margin gives crit more weight.

 

 

I'm fairly certain we've already hashed that out in this thread, and it's just not the case. The logic is sound, but in actual practice the difference between 164 crit rating and 328 crit rating for a BiS geared player is around a 1% swing either way.

That means that we are guaranteed that if we have a 40% crit percentage, 40% of our attacks are unshieldable.

Unfortunately that's a bit of a meaningless stat. Crit and shield are on the same roll, so unless your crit chance and your target's shield chance exceed 100% combined, you're not reducing your target's chance of shielding.

 

To put it another way, let's say your crit chance is 40%, and your target's shield chance is 40%. There is a 40% chance of you landing a crit, a 20% chance to land a normal hit, and a 40% chance for the attack to be shielded. If your crit chance was 20%, then you'd have a 20% chance of critting, a 40% chance of a normal hit, and a 40% chance of a shielding. You're not actually reducing the chance of your target shielding your attacks.

Edited October 8, 2012 by Aurojiin

Keep in mind that Beserk only causes auto crits for 6s bleed ticks. That's not even enough to auto-crit one round of rupture and deadly saber.

 

What do you mean by 6s bleed ticks? It lasts 6 charges, depending on which bleed is up this could tick every 1s or every 1.5s.

 

 

Things everyone should know about crit % for bleed damage, a type of force damage.

 

1. Crit% is a combination of crit rating, strength, willpower and any build bonuses. They are all additive.
   
2. There is no diminishing marginal return to crit%; however, the previously mentioned components of crit% due suffer from diminishing marginal returns.
   
3. At lvl 50, our base strength is 250 and base willpower is 100. This translates into a base crit of 2.8% for force crit%.
   
4. In addition you should have +17% force crit from the following places:
   
   • 5% base for all characters
     
   • 1% from Vette's max affection
     
   • 5% from Coordination (Imperial Agent Buff)
     
   • 6% from Malice (talent in the Rage tree)
     

[*] Next, you should factor in +15% bleed crit from 5 stacks of Juyo @ 3% per stack.

 

Now, before applying any crit rating or strength from any of our gear, we effectively have a 34.8% crit% for our bleed damage. Assuming BiS 1.3 gear, all strength augments, Sith Inquisitor buff and all datacrons, your total strength should be 2034 and willpower 147. This adds an additional 11.1% crit.

 

Our bleed crit% is now 45.9%. And, this is before we have added any benefit from crit rating. This fact is the cause of the whole crit rating vs power debate for Annihilation Marauders. Most of our damage comes from bleed, and our effective base crit% for bleeds is 45.9%. Thus, many suggest that we don't need any crit rating and we should focus entirely on power for its boost to all damage.

 

Based on my analysis, this is not true. I believe we benefit from a crit rating of at least 123 at the expense of power. This 123 crit rating provides an additional 5.1% crit%, and provides a modest ~1% DPS increase. After this, there may still be benefit from higher crit rating, but according to my calculations it is less than 0.1% difference.

For annihilation, some crit is probably fine, but the majority of the posters here are talking about Carnage and Rage in PvP settings, where power is the best.

What do you mean by 6s bleed ticks? It lasts 6 charges, depending on which bleed is up this could tick every 1s or every 1.5s.

 

 

Things everyone should know about crit % for bleed damage, a type of force damage.

 

1. Crit% is a combination of crit rating, strength, willpower and any build bonuses. They are all additive.
   
2. There is no diminishing marginal return to crit%; however, the previously mentioned components of crit% due suffer from diminishing marginal returns.
   
3. At lvl 50, our base strength is 250 and base willpower is 100. This translates into a base crit of 2.8% for force crit%.
   
4. In addition you should have +17% force crit from the following places:
   
   • 5% base for all characters
     
   • 1% from Vette's max affection
     
   • 5% from Coordination (Imperial Agent Buff)
     
   • 6% from Malice (talent in the Rage tree)
     

[*] Next, you should factor in +15% bleed crit from 5 stacks of Juyo @ 3% per stack.

 

Now, before applying any crit rating or strength from any of our gear, we effectively have a 34.8% crit% for our bleed damage. Assuming BiS 1.3 gear, all strength augments, Sith Inquisitor buff and all datacrons, your total strength should be 2034 and willpower 147. This adds an additional 11.1% crit.

 

Our bleed crit% is now 45.9%. And, this is before we have added any benefit from crit rating. This fact is the cause of the whole crit rating vs power debate for Annihilation Marauders. Most of our damage comes from bleed, and our effective base crit% for bleeds is 45.9%. Thus, many suggest that we don't need any crit rating and we should focus entirely on power for its boost to all damage.

 

Based on my analysis, this is not true. I believe we benefit from a crit rating of at least 123 at the expense of power. This 123 crit rating provides an additional 5.1% crit%, and provides a modest ~1% DPS increase. After this, there may still be benefit from higher crit rating, but according to my calculations it is less than 0.1% difference.

 

TL: DR version if you have crit stay crit if you have power stay power, unless you care about +/- 1%

My opinion, probably hashed over a few times here already.

 

Annihilation, main stat. More crits=more durability.

Rage, Power. Auto crit smash is going to to be your bread and butter.

Carnage, haven't played enough but I'd say main state for crits on fillers.

 

I recently went from annihilation all power to annihilation all strength and it seems better to me, if nothing else in my head.

As a rage spec, I noticed significant damage increase swapping out crit/accuracy mods for power and surge ones. As for anni spec, I cannot really say. In pve it takes about 1/3 of the time (I'm talking about operations) to build a full stack of fury, so the berserk boost that auto-crits your bleed effects might counteract the benefits of a high crit rating.

My opinion, probably hashed over a few times here already.

 

Annihilation, main stat. More crits=more durability.

Rage, Power. Auto crit smash is going to to be your bread and butter.

Carnage, haven't played enough but I'd say main state for crits on fillers.

 

I recently went from annihilation all power to annihilation all strength and it seems better to me, if nothing else in my head.

 

Not quite sure where you're going with this...

 

If you're referring to augments (which isn't the point of this thread at all), yes. All DPS classes should use only main-stat augments. Any class with a main-stat-boosting talent... it's a compete no brainer. Assassin and Marauder (the 2 ACs without one), it's much closer, but there's a tiny marginal benefit to main stat over Power.

 

In general... highest stat budget per piece wins, regardless of the breakdown between Strength and Power (and to a limited extent, Crit).

 

I do not think it's safe to assume that LagunaD's theorycrafting for Carnage/Combat generalizes completely to all 3 Marauder specs, much less to all other DPS AC specs, but I do think ~100-300 Crit Rating is the "butter" zone for most folks. The ROI for the first ~100 points is just too good, and then the effective difference for the following ~200 points between Power and Crit is quite minor. After that, DR does start to catch up with Crit Rating in a more meaningful way.

What the guy said above^^^^^^

 

100-200 crit is great, anything after that is meh

I do not think it's safe to assume that LagunaD's theorycrafting for Carnage/Combat generalizes completely to all 3 Marauder specs, much less to all other DPS AC specs, but I do think ~100-300 Crit Rating is the "butter" zone for most folks. The ROI for the first ~100 points is just too good, and then the effective difference for the following ~200 points between Power and Crit is quite minor. After that, DR does start to catch up with Crit Rating in a more meaningful way.

 

You're right. LagunaD's theory crafting doesn't transfer over to all three of our other specs specially not Rage. Rage it's just too good to go power/surge for everything specially now with how often you can smash.

You're right. LagunaD's theory crafting doesn't transfer over to all three of our other specs specially not Rage. Rage it's just too good to go power/surge for everything specially now with how often you can smash.

 

Not to mention 15% increased crit chance on your primary filler ability, Vicious Slash, and your execute ability.