Everytime I look at a star wars related forum I always see that people everywhere seems to think that the Jedi of the movie-era where the best that has ever been. I do not agree on that point or at least not on the point that there has never been anyone before them that could have been placed on the same level.

I have made a thread where I asked exactly why people thought in that way (post it here http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=924984) but I have not recieved the respons that I have been looking for. So here is a different aproach, insult and smite the o so mighty heroes an maybee they wil get angry and present me with arguments Mohahahahaha.

Argument 1: In the 1000 years since the fall of the Brotherhood of Darkness the sith who succeded them pretty much manipulated and one could almost say that they unofficialy ruled the republics corrupt infrastructure for at least three of sith generations when you read the books. That controll they used to make the republic pretty much useless. Pirates and other violent elements could roam the trading lines and isolate the individual planets in the Rims and the sith used their leverage in the senate to keep the systems from mustering a functional military force to keep the violent elements under control breeding mistrust between the rim and the core that lasted al the way to the clone wars.

The point of this argument is to explain how the sith could so easily make the republic and later the seperatists jump on command, one side where under a strong liked chancelor and the other where so distrusful and fearfullof the corrupt rule of the republic that they clung to the only thing that could save them. Count Dooku

 

Argument 2: The jedi of the era wher under the dirct control of the chancelor and could not be dispatched without his/her aproval. Through that the sith could control them easily, espacialy when the senate took control over that power and pretty much let the Jedi be reduced to enforcers and bullies that were more distrusted pawns of the seante to the Rim people than anything else (the source for this argument is the books Darth Plagueis and Labyrinth of Evil).

 

Argument 3: The jedi of the era for so afraid of the dark side that they even forbid the use of the Juyo form which resulted in them being unprepared when facing someone who had been trained in it ( I have not read the stories about Darth Maul yet but I do seem to recall that he had face of against a few jedi and a master or two before Naboo and ended up on top). They also had no experience fighting against other force users other than a few straglers here and there so why are they always hyped as the best ever to be?

Time and time again the jedi masters of the era faced of aginst the cyborg generall and this bodyguards and fell but never did it occur to the jedi to take the advanced tincans with the force to turn in into big scrapballs. And of course we have that embaresing episode where a jedi high council member is stomped by Savage Opress a newbie to the force with a few months of experience at best.

 

Argument 4: The jedi of the era were lazy and just plain stupid. They felt the dark side rising for over 300 years and they did nothing. Dooku said right to Obi-wans face that the sith ruled the republic and what did the jedi do? Nothing. Pure idiocy that is, with a little deductive reasoning and a little detective work it could al have been solved. Who had enough influence to manuever the Naboo crisis? Who cold have paid for the clone army? Who was in the position to cover up any kind of mistakes? But no the jedi just rush to the obvious threat and starts choping droids.

 

Argument 5: The clone wars were not that big compared to the other great wars in the lore. Think abput it. The rupublic has been at peace for about a millenia, Both sides of the conflict had to wait about at least half a year into the war before they even could launch an effectice campaign bea´cause they simply laked the recources to pull it of.

And the tactics the republic used were stupid as f***k. They face a pretty much brain-dead breed of enemy footsoldiers 9 times out of 10 whos only tactics is to swarm the enmy with numbers, who are so slow in their reactions and programming that the number of standard kills per clone were 20 droids (whith later sabotage that was raised to 50 droids per clone). So what do the generalls do most of the time? Take them head on thats what. The enemy had no brains and required a command ship to work and had no force users to back them up, so why not launch commando raids a la Flashpoint style and destroy the command ship and then take bets on how fast the KILL EVERYTHIN THAT MOVES backup command will take care of the rest.

And then its just the plain idiocy of using only hte clone army. You find out that you have 200 000 units of clones ready for battle (how much a unit represent I do not now I have read to many estiments to be sure), great now let us use them to gain time to train another army to increase our chances. WHAT no+ we are supposed to trust an army grown and genetecly modified to fight and obey just because they helped save 20 or so Jedi and started a war?.

The seperatists use armies that come out on assembly line and i think Grievous said something about outnumbering the republic 100 to 1 which is not unlikely since the war industry of the seperatist had a head start. So the citizens of the republic do not line up to fight against this mechanized threat that urns entire worlds, they just sit aound being afraid an dhope that the seperatist do not come knocking on the door.

 

So there you have it my arguments that Jedi and Republic had no chance against the sith Grand plan since they lacked the brains to even comprhend that they had been suckered even when it was litteraly jammed in their faces. Th succes of the sith was not because of Palpatines lightsaber skills it was because the sith had spent a full millenia lobotomizing both the jedi and the republic. Thats my argument now do anyone have anything to ad?

 

Ps. The Empires wrath at the time of SoR would use Obi-wans as a football and spank Darth Vader until he cried for mommy .

Edited October 18, 2017 by kepeskvaeri

The Sith, and the various incarnations of the Sith Empire, more often than not lose wars to the Jedi and the Republic. The Sith have a rather poor record, overall.

Another thing that I do not wnat to make a separate thread about. I am writting a fanfic about the clash between the player characters and I am bot sure where you can upload it. any advise?

All of those Arguments are events depicted in the Moves - Epiosdes 1 - 6 . You did mentioned the BrotherHood of Darkness ... but not a good way in how it was used.

 

You do realize that the Events in the Movies was the Republic at it's worse, right ? Even the Mandalorians claim that the Jedi are the most worthy Opponent - not the Sith. Even if so ... its kinda hard to compare the 2 tbh - the Sith would be too busy trying to kill themselves while the Jedi can just watch

Edited August 2, 2017 by Vlanzche

All of those Arguments are events depicted in the Moves - Epiosdes 1 - 6 . You did mentioned the BrotherHood of Darkness ... but not a good way in how it was used.

 

You do realize that the Events in the Movies was the Republic at it's worse, right ? Even the Mandalorians claim that the Jedi are the most worthy Opponent - not the Sith. Even if so ... its kinda hard to compare the 2 tbh - the Sith would be too bust trying to kill themselves while the Jedi can just watch

 

Which is why I talked about the movies and the clone wars and rebels series and not the games or the books or anything else. My biggest problem with films is that they are said to be when the jedi are at their peak but everything I see in the canoon and legends screams BS. What I really want is a debate were people explain to me why the jedi are supposed to be that. All I get when I post these threads are not answers but dodging commentaries and answers that has nothing to do with the question.

And the Republic is at its worst as you said so no use talking about that.

Edited August 2, 2017 by kepeskvaeri

The Jedi also had the "brilliant" idea to build their temple over an Sith-Shrine what made them easy to manipulate by the Sith.

All of those Arguments are events depicted in the Moves - Epiosdes 1 - 6 . You did mentioned the BrotherHood of Darkness ... but not a good way in how it was used.

 

You do realize that the Events in the Movies was the Republic at it's worse, right ? Even the Mandalorians claim that the Jedi are the most worthy Opponent - not the Sith. Even if so ... its kinda hard to compare the 2 tbh - the Sith would be too busy trying to kill themselves while the Jedi can just watch

 

I mentioned that The brotherhood was defeated and that was it, not how or why. And yes I did sum up the Republic WHEN IT WAS AT ITS WORST beacuse that was the whole point of that ridicoulusly long post. To sum up what the Republic and the Jedi had been reduced to. That is the enire point of these threads I spit out with regular intervals despite that I never get any answers (none that mekes any sence anyway).

 

Why is it that every movie-hyped person can never give me an answer with any kind of facts or good reasoning behind it?

Get some discusion going here, I paint a giant bullseye one my digital back and ask you to explain why the characters in the last days of the republic is not half-wits with the deductive reasoning of a cockroach and the only thing I get is a few hastily put together sentences that does not make any sence whatsoever.

 

Anakinj is a wimp, Obi-wan is a lobotomized catholic scholl principal who can not see his students problems even when they are stuffed up his nose and Yoda could not have any less atachement to the reality of the galaxy left if he had spent the last 100 years smoking Deathsticks.

Edited August 15, 2017 by kepeskvaeri

the Sith would be too busy trying to kill themselves

More likely they are trying to kill *each other*.

The Sith, and the various incarnations of the Sith Empire, more often than not lose wars to the Jedi and the Republic. The Sith have a rather poor record, overall.

 

It's more of a cycle really - they win and loose in turns. Admittedly, pre-Darth Bane sith were weaker due to sticking lighstabers into each other's backs rather than the jedi's.

The Jedi Philosophy is one philosophy I do not agree with and have qualms with. Ever read The Jedi Path? After reading that, I made non-force user toons. Although, not all Jedi wanted and didn't stick with the council. In fact, some of them became Rogue Jedi. I think the gray Jedi has fascinated me more than anything.

2 months 9 comments an still on the first page wow a I am impressed. Especially since none of the comments ads anything to the discussion

One thing that seems really jarring on screen is how little the Jedi seem to actually use the Force during combat.

In the games and novels, multi-tasking is portrayed as a lot easier, but in the movies and in Clone Wars (and probably Rebels, though I haven't seen that) the ability to fight with a lightsabre and use fancy Force tricks is greatly downplayed.

 

Some say that 90% of a fight between Force users is invisible - we can't see their 'defensive bubbles' that may or may not have been added to handwave the apparent lack of tactical sense we see among Jedi

 

But against the droids, why aren't the Jedi throwing them around like grains of sand?

I think a big part of it is their mentality at the time.

Peace has been the rule for generations, and given what Yoda says in ESB ( "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge, and defence. Never for attack" ) it could be that very few Jedi are even capable of thinking about the Force the way we, the audience, do.

 

We can say "Why not just do this?" or "Why not just throw that?" because it makes sense to us.

To a Jedi held back by fear of the Dark Side, by the whole 'knowledge and defence, never attack' mindset, by being completely separated from the real world by their upbringing? They're not flexible enough to even consider it.

 

Granted, there are some exceptions. Not just Anakin (though to be fair, even he acts like a moron at times).

The point remains that as Mace said in AotC "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers".

Few, if any, Jedi of that time period have it in them to think like soldiers because war is not something they've had to deal with, certainly not on a scale like the Clone Wars. A thousand years of peace (give or take the odd "brush fire") have made them arrogant and complacent, and that is why they failed so miserably.

 

Hmm, pretty much just agreeing with the OP there, aren't I?

Hmm, pretty much just agreeing with the OP there, aren't I?

 

No sweat it does sound logical when you spell out the facts like this.

Ok now when I have had time to think, read and watch some more here is 2 more arguments.

 

Argument 6: NO ARMOR! On the time of the old republic right up to the New Sith Wars armor was a common sight among force users. It might not have seen universal usage but it was out there, it allowed force-wielders to take direct hits from lightsabers and blasters without blinking (or at least without dying).

And what happens when the clone troopers show up in their quite effective body shell (I seem to remember aclone being totally sorounded int TCW taking several shots before boing down)? The jedi just keep on fighting in their robes nightgowns or in Aylaa Securas case her underwear. How does that make any sence? The even mention it en Rise of Darth Vader that the clones are gratefull or pleasently surprised that their new leader is actually wearing body-protecion. Just think how man Jedi could have survived Order 66 if they could have taken those first surprise shots.

 

Argument 7: Why on earth are the Jedi council so bent on not chasing down Dooku and Grievous? They are both the only really dangerous leaders that the separtists have, without them the war would have been over in months. In the Grievous comic some Jedi even try a targeted mission to take him out during a genocidal attack on a planet and the council banishes them because assasination is not the Jedi way! ***? He was exterminating a planets population by the billions and selling the rest to Genosians as test subjects and it was not the Jedi way to try to stop him?

Put together a team for crying out loud. Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan could both take him on separately so put them together with Anakin as the geataway pilot and that genocidal Tin-can would have been spare parts in a manner of days.

Edited October 14, 2017 by kepeskvaeri

The Sith, and the various incarnations of the Sith Empire, more often than not lose wars to the Jedi and the Republic. The Sith have a rather poor record, overall.

 

Wars in general are won not because of what you do right. You win usualy because the enemy makes mistake that he cannot correct. Take every invasion of Russia for example. The Teutonic order, the Swedish Empire, Napoleon and Hitler al made the mistake of sending armies head on against an enemy who was the best at enduring that kind of warfare.

 

The Sith and their various empires weakness is that they are holding together buy military might alone. Ok that is not entirely true in the case of Vitiate's empire, that lot actually does have a common history and culture that kkeps it together to them the Republic is the bad guys.

 

The Republics weakness is also its strength. Its versitility. So many worlds and races to gain ideas and objectives from. But it is also a weakness ou could exploit if you know how. We see that during the JC story line the Sith almost manage to slice of a big part from the Republic so we know it could work. Bash planets individually and through infiltrators and diplomats ask for mercy in exhange for neutrality, pick of the Republics support system piece by piece. Of dourse that method would only work if the Republic could not back that world in the first place due to lack of manpower or recources.

I always thought the Jedi were a little ridiculous. The fact that Mace Windu and the rest of the council do everything in their power to ignore Anikan when he flat out tells them Palpatine is a Sith was mind boggling. Add in the fact that in damn near every encounter (movie and game, well, at least on a LS Empire story) the Jedi are the first to strike, it kind of flies in the face of their "only for defense" narrative.

 

That being said, a full on LS Jedi and a full on DS Sith are, IMO, the weakest opponents you can face. One is so terrified of any emotion that they completely shut it down. This takes away any empathy or feelings of trust and camaraderie, all of which are important to build and lead an effective team, as well as win the love and trust of the people you are fighting for. The DS Sith has the same problem, just from the opposite direction, with the added benefit of being so bs crazy that planning an actual attack or defense would be completely beyond them. The ones who are the most effective are usually those who are less worried about alignment and more focused on the pragmatic.

 

So I guess I halfway agree with the OP, but I disagree at the same time. Both have the potential to grow more powerful, but neither will if they continue to hold on to ancient dogma. The Sith have more flexibility in their following of the Dark Side, witch is where they'd have the advantage over the Jedi.

in damn near every encounter (movie and game, well, at least on a LS Empire story) the Jedi are the first to strike, it kind of flies in the face of their "only for defense" narrative.

 

Actually, I'm not sure that's true at all for the movies.

In the very first encounter, the Jedi are ready for diplomacy until the Trade Federation tries to gas them and send droids in to kill them. Later, Darth Maul attacks first both times he shows up.

 

In AOTC, the Jedi track down a bounty hunter after she tries to kill Padme, and even then, she's only disarmed after trying to shoot Obi-Wan in the back. Jango later attacks Obi-Wan on Kamino.

 

Obi-Wan is captured on Geonosis during an investigation, and Anakin & Padme fight back after they're attacked by the Geonosians.

 

Nearly all the exceptions I can think of involve Anakin, except for Luke attacking Vader after the latter threatens to turn Leia.

 

Of course, in the TOR era it's different. You get bonus rewards for being bloodthirsty.

 

Overall, though, the point is valid: the philosophy of "Always defend, never attack" either excessively restrains the Jedi or is interpreted so broadly as to be meaningless (If "defense" includes the defense of others, how far can that go, or how preemptive can it be? Take this far enough and you end up with things like the Jedi Covenant trying to kill Zayne Carrick).

 

The Republic is a pushover because it's a bloated bureaucracy with crippling internal divisions...and when it's tried to go on the offensive, it's, with exceptions, incredibly reckless (Ziost, for example), or just plain outmatched by a more prepared and committed enemy. This is, of course, a cursory explanation.

 

The Jedi's refusal to use their passions doesn't necessarily "weaken" them in combat directly, but it does stop them from taking the kind of initiative Sith can. It's not that their will is weak, it's just not directly zealously towards taking out potential threats. Further, this attitude extends to their relationship to the Republic: live and let live. Again, with exceptions, their aversion toward exercising direct political authority sowed suspicion toward them while stopping them from taking preventative action against real internal threats (whether Sith manipulation, or government corruption, or other disaffected elements such as the underworld).

If you really think that the Emperor's Wrath would "spank Vader until he cried for Mommy" then you obviously haven't read up on his feats. I'm referencing his Legends feats because I only compare Legends characters to other Legends characters.

If you really think that the Emperor's Wrath would "spank Vader until he cried for Mommy" then you obviously haven't read up on his feats. I'm referencing his Legends feats because I only compare Legends characters to other Legends characters.

 

All the text, points, facts and arguments and that is what you get stuck on?

 

Of course if you did not compare legends to legends it would be like comparing Marvel, DC, or various Anime characters to star wars, and that is not what I am after. So I agree with you 100% on that point

 

And as far as the later point goes NO I do not believe that statement either and YES I have read the books and comics where Vader apears or most of them anyway including the one between EP 4 and5 where Leia keeps up with him for a while.

And the one where he almost gets his *** handed to him by a group of 8 (I think it was) Jedi who where respected but mostly total pacifists who refused to kill or to angered be able to use the force as they would have been able to (keep in mind a very common tactiic among assasins targaeting Jedi is just that to disrupt their calm in order to prevent them from using the force as I Jedi does). He would have died right there if the Jedi ironicly started to fight among themselfs (source the Comic Purge).

 

When both of them where at their peak I could be convinced that they where on relatively equal terms but until I see a comic or read a book where Vader pulls of stunts like the ones the Wrath does (here is a link to a good respect thread on the matter https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/darthant66/blog/the-emperors-wrath-respect-thread-2017/103818/) I will never be convinced that Vader is the better sith POTENTIAL DOES NOT EQUAL POWER.

And if you had read the that much you probably also read the part where I decided to insult peoples fvourite characters in order to get a reaction:p.

 

And fear not I am crunching comics and books al the time so I will come across more facts both about the threads actual subject and whatever sidetrack you throw at me.

Edited October 14, 2017 by kepeskvaeri

In Rebels, I feel Yoda explains a lot of this very well. He speaks about how it was their arrogance and getting sucked into a war that blinded them. By the nature of things, being made soldiers is not a light side activity at all. So as time went on the Jedi were pulled from their path bit by bit becoming weaker and easier prey. This makes sense and could only happen at the Republics peak strength (aka no opposition). See I think we sometimes look at this through the lens of all things pure are good but the point is that having things weigh too far to the light side creates problems through imbalance.

 

It may look a lot different then when the dark side is dominate but light side superiority has flaws as well. Pride, arrogance, stagnation and apathy are examples of flaws of the 'pure'. Sometimes it's hard for us to see this because we are raised to believe that all flaws are bad and perfection is the realm of good. It was the arrogance of the Jedi that made them miss the fact that the imbalance the 'chosen one' was supposed to fix was in fact an imbalance in their favour.

 

So on one hand we can say that both the Republic and Jedi were at their peak but when one is at their peak there is only one direction to go and that is down. Thus the force continues to strive for balance.

Edited October 15, 2017 by LrdScorpio

Wanna add something the jedi as said by someone on this thread do not know how to use their power they never knew the sith also but its worse in the movie around era.

Let me put it this way their main powers are mind control and TK mind control can falter towards strong individuals but TK for any non force users or whatever Durge is you an god they are rats.

With TK you can crush the heart, brain any other organ in the body, break an spine, lift the creature you want tens of meters in the air and crush it on the ground and there far more then this.

None of this was done in the movie era besides Darth Vader and only once he did it. That is why they are pushovers they do not know how to use their power way more in the movie era they got to indoctrinated that they became almost useless.

The Sith, and the various incarnations of the Sith Empire, more often than not lose wars to the Jedi and the Republic. The Sith have a rather poor record, overall.

 

They both have their faults, they are two ends of two extremes.

 

One overly passive and naive too the point of stupidity.

 

The other is overly aggressive and too paranoid too do anything correctly.

 

This is why I think the "movies" are trying to peddle the grey side of things because lets face it I think most agree that the grey part of the star wars universe is the most realistic perhaps a tad boring at times and not as fun as the darkside but you kinda get the best of both worlds so to speak. I also think they've found it much harder too right a good darkside character later without it being layered with cliches haha same with jedi really.

I would say in the movie era they were at peace for a long time that I would guess no one knew what to do either leading troops, which I think they had to learn on the fly since unsure they even bothered to look in their history record, to handle any Jedi that fall like in Clone Wars where that one Jedi that used two double bladed lightsabers that no one knew he was going down the dark path. It took the clones to figure that out and somehow I was for them killing him then. Guess that was foreshadowing the whole Order 66.