This is not a QQ thread. It is not about any one specific class or classes. That being said while I really want a response from a dev, I know I am unlikely to get it so I figure this might serve as a sounding board for some good discussion, though since this is the internet I might be more likely to get a dev response but who knows! The internet can surprise you in a good way every once in awhile. Warning: Long Wall of Text probably incoming.

We talk about this class or that class being overpowered, and we talk about balance being subjective and up for debate, and while that's true the fact is that the only people whose opinion matters at the end of the day when it comes to class balance is the dev's opinions. That being said I haven't gone through every dev post ever made on the subject so links to things they've said is very helpful, and there is always the hope, however faint it may be that our opinions can influence dev opinions.

That being said, while the term OP comes up a lot the fact is that I'm not really very sure what that means. Overpowered requires a context in order to be well defined, which is required before such a thing can be reasonably discussed.

When we say a class is OP what do we really mean? Often we mean that another class walked all over us in a warzone or a 1v1 and we consider ourselves good players so the only explanation is that the class must be overpowered.

At the heart of this complaint though is a feeling that classes should be balanced for 1v1 encounters. In such situations clearly classes that require team support to function properly are going to feel underpowered and classes that are well equipped to win 1v1 encounters are going to seem overpowered. This may account for the large cryouts of nerf we on the forums for Maras/Sents, PTs/VGs, and occasionally Sniper's/Gunslingers.

But then someone will come along and rightly say that this game focuses on objective based PVP not 1v1 death matches. In this case, a class could be rightly considered overpowered if it can contribute significantly more to success in these objective based games over other classes. But whereas it's very easy to point out when a class is OPd 1v1 (can they reasonably expect to win any 1v1 encounter they run into against other classes? Probably OPd) contribution to objectives is a much more nebulous concept.

It is this concept that I'd like BW to define for us. What do they consider good balance in this context? From this standpoint we not only have to look at classes' roles but how those roles contribute to the objectives of the various warzones and more importantly the other abilities those classes have seemingly independent of their role of DPS, Tank, or Healer, as well as how each AC is able to contribute to it's stated role.

As an example, BW has stated several times that their metrics have all classes performing within their 5% window for damage. I play a DPS commando which most would agree is underpowered atm, but I know from my performance in PVE that from a damage perspective they're absolutely right. Yet my ability to consistently fulfill a DPS role in warzones is nonexistent (the consistency that is, possibly a L2P issue) and when we look at things beyond simply dealing damage there are even more glaring issues.

Lets look at some of the classes and their ability to contribute to their role, as well as the extra utility they can bring to different warzones.

Juggs/Guardians: Can tank or DPS. Arguably the best ball carriers in Hutt Ball due to decent defensive cooldowns and most importanty their crazy mobility with the ability to leap to friend and foe alike. In the tank role they are sturdy enough, but of the three tanks I don't consider them the best for solo guarding an objective.

Shadows/Assasins: Can tank or DPS. Arguably right now their best PVP spec is actually a hybrid spec, but they are definitely some of the best solo guards in the game which is a utility which can't be overstated enough. The ability to survive solo in a 2v1 or even 3v1 situation and prevent caps is a powerful one. In addition while their resiliance and speed boosts make them ok ball carriers, they really shine in hutt ball in their ability to stealth to the endzone, receive a pass, and then force speed into the endzone cleansing all snares on their way (with resilliance up to prevent further roots/snares. From a tank perspective they are the squishiest of the three tanks because BW designed their mitigation around shielding and defense chance, both of which are very subpar in PVP. Shield especially due to the large number of attacks that are simply unshieldable. The ability to stealth in any spec is a powerful tool in any warzone however as winning the contested node is often about drawing defenders away to the off node and shadows do this extremely well.

Vanguards/Powertechs: Can Tank or DPS. Of the three tanks the VG/PT is the only one you hear for the nerf cries from the DPS perspective. This is because they have very very high burst that requires very little set up time which is exactly what's most valued in PVP. They are the worst ball carriers of the three tanks, but their grapple, which is available on any spec, is a very powerful defensive tool which shouldn't be overlooked. They are some of the sturdiest tanks if you need someone to survive without many defensive cooldowns, and in their most popular DPS spec they are the definition of a glass cannon.

Now if we look at the three tanks there is a very real argument that neither is OPd compared to the others in that regard. If we look at the utility they bring they each contribute something relatively unique. This is good balance among tanking classes. They each have a variety of useful tools and each is decently differentiated from the others. The only issue here I think is the lack of viability of shield tanking which makes Shadows less attractive in that role, but their 1v1 capabilities and ability to either solo assault or solo guard a node makes up for it in large part (this is a matter worthy of debate in my opinion, and also where I'd like BW to chime in).

That was an example, certainly not an exhaustive list of each classes abilities, but looking at it with a very cursory glance I don't see any glaring issues of balance from a PVP perspective.

This brings us to the real sources of contention which are DPS and Healers.

On the DPS side I may just have to give up and assume that BW doesn't want all ACs viable in all possible roles in all aspects of the game. I may QQ about how lackluster Commando DPS is in PVP due to what I see is a lack of tools needed to reach our damage potential, but then on the PVE side of things I have one of the best sustained DPS classes in the game. Conversely, while DPS Operatives remain one of the good PVP DPS specs in the game (if played right, I know you guys have had a lot of nerfs) they're pretty much non existent in endgame PVE because Operative sustained DPS is pretty crap and while the good players can do ok they'd be much better switching to a class with better sustained damage, preferably ranged.

That might not sit well when we consider that a class like sentinel is viable in both aspects, but then that's the one and only time I'll concede the argument that sentinels can only do one thing has any real validity (I'm not saying this makes it ok. I don't think it does, but at least here that line of reasoning might possibly have a place).

Ok I'm rambling a bit. What am I trying to say?

I'm saying that BW needs to give us clear goals for class balance in PVP. It doesn't matter if all classes can do the same amount of damage if some classes don't have the tools necessary to do that damage (if balancing for massive DPS battles). It doesn't matter that some classes don't have the tools to deal damage if they bring added, and invaluable, utility in an objective (if balancing for objective based PVP). As an example I see constantly that Operative DPS needs help. The little buggers annoy me but I'll concede that maybe they do. Nevertheless that 8s ranged AoE 8s mez can and often is the difference between getting the cap or not getting the cap. If balancing for objectives thats something to take into consideration. If balancing for damage it's not.

But in order for those of us on the forums to have any reasonable discussions we need to know what BW is trying to balance for and have some way to reasonably discuss, possibly even quantify, how well each class is balanced in that regard. Otherwise all those metrics are just worthless raw data that doesn't actually help anything.

Ok look I feel like I'm just rambling right now, but I guess what I'm saying is, we need to know what BW wants classes to contribute before we can really say how operatives should be nerfed again.

That being said, while the term OP comes up a lot the fact is that I'm not really very sure what that means. Overpowered requires a context in order to be well defined, which is required before such a thing can be reasonably discussed.

 

When we say a class is OP what do we really mean? Often we mean that another class walked all over us in a warzone or a 1v1 and we consider ourselves good players so the only explanation is that the class must be overpowered.

 

At the heart of this complaint though is a feeling that classes should be balanced for 1v1 encounters. In such situations clearly classes that require team support to function properly are going to feel underpowered and classes that are well equipped to win 1v1 encounters are going to seem overpowered. This may account for the large cryouts of nerf we on the forums for Maras/Sents, PTs/VGs, and occasionally Sniper's/Gunslingers.

I'm going to stop you right there, because I disagree. At the heart of the complaint is the feeling of "I couldn't do anything to stop that." Obviously it takes some amount of class knowledge (both yours and the attacker's) to spot what could have been done better, so it's often a L2P issue, but when you go over the fight, you look at what killed you, what didn't work against the other guy and you just go "I couldn't have done anything else. There's no answer to that." That is OverPowered in the proper sense of the term, not the L2P QQ meaning.

But then someone will come along and rightly say that this game focuses on objective based PVP not 1v1 death matches. In this case, a class could be rightly considered overpowered if it can contribute significantly more to success in these objective based games over other classes. But whereas it's very easy to point out when a class is OPd 1v1 (can they reasonably expect to win any 1v1 encounter they run into against other classes? Probably OPd) contribution to objectives is a much more nebulous concept.

 

It is this concept that I'd like BW to define for us. What do they consider good balance in this context? From this standpoint we not only have to look at classes' roles but how those roles contribute to the objectives of the various warzones and more importantly the other abilities those classes have seemingly independent of their role of DPS, Tank, or Healer, as well as how each AC is able to contribute to it's stated role.

 

As an example, BW has stated several times that their metrics have all classes performing within their 5% window for damage. I play a DPS commando which most would agree is underpowered atm, but I know from my performance in PVE that from a damage perspective they're absolutely right. Yet my ability to consistently fulfill a DPS role in warzones is nonexistent (the consistency that is, possibly a L2P issue) and when we look at things beyond simply dealing damage there are even more glaring issues.

 

Lets look at some of the classes and their ability to contribute to their role, as well as the extra utility they can bring to different warzones.

 

Juggs/Guardians: Can tank or DPS. Arguably the best ball carriers in Hutt Ball due to decent defensive cooldowns and most importanty their crazy mobility with the ability to leap to friend and foe alike. In the tank role they are sturdy enough, but of the three tanks I don't consider them the best for solo guarding an objective.

 

Shadows/Assasins: Can tank or DPS. Arguably right now their best PVP spec is actually a hybrid spec, but they are definitely some of the best solo guards in the game which is a utility which can't be overstated enough. The ability to survive solo in a 2v1 or even 3v1 situation and prevent caps is a powerful one. In addition while their resiliance and speed boosts make them ok ball carriers, they really shine in hutt ball in their ability to stealth to the endzone, receive a pass, and then force speed into the endzone cleansing all snares on their way (with resilliance up to prevent further roots/snares. From a tank perspective they are the squishiest of the three tanks because BW designed their mitigation around shielding and defense chance, both of which are very subpar in PVP. Shield especially due to the large number of attacks that are simply unshieldable. The ability to stealth in any spec is a powerful tool in any warzone however as winning the contested node is often about drawing defenders away to the off node and shadows do this extremely well.

 

Vanguards/Powertechs: Can Tank or DPS. Of the three tanks the VG/PT is the only one you hear for the nerf cries from the DPS perspective. This is because they have very very high burst that requires very little set up time which is exactly what's most valued in PVP. They are the worst ball carriers of the three tanks, but their grapple, which is available on any spec, is a very powerful defensive tool which shouldn't be overlooked. They are some of the sturdiest tanks if you need someone to survive without many defensive cooldowns, and in their most popular DPS spec they are the definition of a glass cannon.

 

 

Now if we look at the three tanks there is a very real argument that neither is OPd compared to the others in that regard. If we look at the utility they bring they each contribute something relatively unique. This is good balance among tanking classes. They each have a variety of useful tools and each is decently differentiated from the others. The only issue here I think is the lack of viability of shield tanking which makes Shadows less attractive in that role, but their 1v1 capabilities and ability to either solo assault or solo guard a node makes up for it in large part (this is a matter worthy of debate in my opinion, and also where I'd like BW to chime in).

 

That was an example, certainly not an exhaustive list of each classes abilities, but looking at it with a very cursory glance I don't see any glaring issues of balance from a PVP perspective.

 

This brings us to the real sources of contention which are DPS and Healers.

 

On the DPS side I may just have to give up and assume that BW doesn't want all ACs viable in all possible roles in all aspects of the game. I may QQ about how lackluster Commando DPS is in PVP due to what I see is a lack of tools needed to reach our damage potential, but then on the PVE side of things I have one of the best sustained DPS classes in the game. Conversely, while DPS Operatives remain one of the good PVP DPS specs in the game (if played right, I know you guys have had a lot of nerfs) they're pretty much non existent in endgame PVE because Operative sustained DPS is pretty crap and while the good players can do ok they'd be much better switching to a class with better sustained damage, preferably ranged.

 

That might not sit well when we consider that a class like sentinel is viable in both aspects, but then that's the one and only time I'll concede the argument that sentinels can only do one thing has any real validity (I'm not saying this makes it ok. I don't think it does, but at least here that line of reasoning might possibly have a place).

 

Ok I'm rambling a bit. What am I trying to say?

 

I'm saying that BW needs to give us clear goals for class balance in PVP.It doesn't matter if all classes can do the same amount of damage if some classes don't have the tools necessary to do that damage (if balancing for massive DPS battles). It doesn't matter that some classes don't have the tools to deal damage if they bring added, and invaluable, utility in an objective (if balancing for objective based PVP). As an example I see constantly that Operative DPS needs help. The little buggers annoy me but I'll concede that maybe they do. Nevertheless that 8s ranged AoE 8s mez can and often is the difference between getting the cap or not getting the cap. If balancing for objectives thats something to take into consideration. If balancing for damage it's not.

 

But in order for those of us on the forums to have any reasonable discussions we need to know what BW is trying to balance for and have some way to reasonably discuss, possibly even quantify, how well each class is balanced in that regard. Otherwise all those metrics are just worthless raw data that doesn't actually help anything.

 

 

Ok look I feel like I'm just rambling right now, but I guess what I'm saying is, we need to know what BW wants classes to contribute before we can really say how operatives should be nerfed again.

I underlined three key points that stood out, first being that Bioware was too ambitious with the classes. As much as people say they want to move away from the trinity of DPS/Tank/Heals, when they're given that, they cry foul and complain. Every class is so unique and brings something different to the table that people choose DPS, see another DPS and cry that they can't do what that other guy is doing. That's how it's DESIGNED and for some reason people don't like that. They do want to have it all, as the second underline states. That's what people want and what they don't receive, so they cry.

For the third underline, this is communication. All Bioware ever says is some vague stuff about metrics. TALK TO US, tell us specifically what goal they're meant to hit and where each class is currently standing. They've said before that Sage/Sorc need to L2P, Commando DPS is designed to be immobile as tradeoff for the great damage they do, that Operatives aren't supposed to stunlock people from 100% to 0% and that Infiltration Shadows are hit-and-run and shouldn't be taking damage. This is all by design, but there's not enough of that kind of specific "Look, this is what the class is envisioned, this is what this spec gives you the option for, if you don't like it, there's this spec or this other class." They need a class guide/description that's not all fluff and has actual in-game relevance, preferably replacing the text that you get when you choose your AC.

Biggest issue in many cases is people expecting to do things that their spec and class is not meant to do and play it like that. See all the time Immortal jugs (or atleast I think they are since they run around in tank stance) running with might stimm not using their taunts or guard, sorcs standing "tanking" 1-2 dps instead off kitting em etc. etc. People go into a WZ with the expectation to play there class and spec like it is not meant to be played. I play Immortal jug as main, my role is to prevent dmg via guard, taunt and controlling the enemy players. I use my CC constant, have 4 diffrent onces and my taunts are rearly off cd.. That is my role and thats how I play it. If I wanted to dps I whoud have repsect into rage or vengange tree. Versialielty off my class is big, but the spec got alot to say on how you play it.

On the topic off OP and Bioware comunication on how the classes are meant to work it is about time they make a clear deffinition on it. I am used from other PvP games that some have insane dps, but is "squisy" to level it out, some can take insane amount off dmg, but has low dps etc. etc. But personally feel that the balance is missing in the game in many cases and it starting to show in the game. I play Empire side and latly I noticed that I am facing more and more Vanguards in WZ and that I am playing with more and more powertechs. "Flavor off the month" I call it, but now it is getting out off hand. One WZ there were: 5 Vanguards and 4 Powertechs in the game of 16 players. Many low HP and seamed to be rerolls, but the worst part is they beat the snot out off full WH geared mara and a sorc dps. Now not saying they played perfect the mara and sorc, but when a 13.500 HP Vanguard (that is recruit gear) do more dmg then a WH mara that plays good, the numbers are off. Also face em alot on my jug and the time to set upp and the dmg output is just insane. Sure it be fine if they had to be stationary or "squisy" to counter this, but that is not the case. They kite like a boss and have cd´s to survive from a nuke. That is my personal OP winning, but point is the "matrix" as Bioware calls it need to be deifned and made clear, If you roll sorc you gone be "squishy", but you got ways to survive, jugs can take dmg and do dmg, but not the best etc. etc. Now it just feels like Bioware is making it and sticking to it instead off balancing it.

Sorry for bad english, but not my native langauge.

Hello Archangel,

Your posts are always beautifully and eloquently written. You are no fool. However I have either greatly misinterpreted what you have written, or I have missed the point., in that it seems very clear to me what each class should be doing. I have never understood what people want as balance.

In my opinion there should not be balance. If there is total balance then it means that every tanking class, for example, should have exactly the same abilities and exactly the same equipment. This would be rubbish in my opinion. There is no other way to achieve balance. Your skill as a player will always outweigh the limitations of your class. In my opinion each class should retain its strengths and limitations.

Best regards and happy gaming ,

From: EAWare

Subject: Class Balance

Dear Player......

Huh? Did you say something? We were unable to make out what you were complaining about due to your Cartel Coin Balance being at Zero. Should you obtain our Cartel Coin Premium Package, we may even listen.....

May the Force be with you .....

/sarcasm

Why would they address class balance, when they could reimplement items that have existed in the databases since launch? They're much too busy focusing on how to add those items to the cash shop, than class balance. We could hope though.

Edit to add: The guy who out posted me has the same idea too. Read his sig. Or just listen to this sound clip,

How bout simply adding the Marauder's Leaps to the list of things that are affected by resolve? Its this simple, a marauder is faced down by 5 angry, charging opponenets.

Marauder leaps to healer, AOE flashbang, 5 people are stunned for 9 seconds while the marauder runs away.

Response: 3 of the 5 pop their CC break and prepare to fight.

Marauder number 2 leaps in, repeats marauder 1's tactic.

5 people stunned for 9-18 seconds depending on if they popped a CC break. the 2 marauders then start picking off the weakest to strongest until they are all dead. anyone who tries to run gets doubled leaped, stunning them for 2 seconds per leap. 5 people were CC'ed and killed with minimal resistance.

Does anyone else see anything wrong with that scenario??

For gods sake put the leap on the damn resolve system. OR wait for GW2 to steal your pvp player base. Whatever you do, if you do nothing, all that money your counting instead of doing your damn jobs will get smaller in the coming months.

How bout simply adding the Marauder's Leaps to the list of things that are affected by resolve? Its this simple, a marauder is faced down by 5 angry, charging opponenets.

 

Marauder leaps to healer, AOE flashbang, 5 people are stunned for 9 seconds while the marauder runs away.

Response: 3 of the 5 pop their CC break and prepare to fight.

 

Marauder number 2 leaps in, repeats marauder 1's tactic.

 

5 people stunned for 9-18 seconds depending on if they popped a CC break. the 2 marauders then start picking off the weakest to strongest until they are all dead. anyone who tries to run gets doubled leaped, stunning them for 2 seconds per leap. 5 people were CC'ed and killed with minimal resistance.

 

Does anyone else see anything wrong with that scenario??

 

For gods sake put the leap on the damn resolve system. OR wait for GW2 to steal your pvp player base. Whatever you do, if you do nothing, all that money your counting instead of doing your damn jobs will get smaller in the coming months.

1) The scenario you described is ridiculous. 2) if you make roots add to resolve, than you are going to cry a lot harder about Marauders, when they can't be rooted.

And for god's sake Awe is NOT a Stun it breaks on damage.

I'm going to stop you right there, because I disagree. At the heart of the complaint is the feeling of "I couldn't do anything to stop that." Obviously it takes some amount of class knowledge (both yours and the attacker's) to spot what could have been done better, so it's often a L2P issue, but when you go over the fight, you look at what killed you, what didn't work against the other guy and you just go "I couldn't have done anything else. There's no answer to that." That is OverPowered in the proper sense of the term, not the L2P QQ meaning.

First off Daiyukie, let me say thank you for contributing intelligently to discussion (as well as everyone else but Daiyukis is the first one that I quoted so I'll focus on him specifically). Barring an actual dev stepping in and giving us something to chew on if the community can at least have an honest civil discussion about balance beyond simple "nerf <class>" threads then that is the second best possible outcome of a thread like this.

Secondly, I would say that that was my point exactly. If the question is "Could I have done anything to stop that?" and the honest answer at the end of the day, after all L2P issues are settled, is no, then that doesn't necessarily mean the class that did that to you is overpowered or that you're underpowered.

Let me give an example. Lets say in voidstar I immediately go right and everyone else on my team goes left because that's where the zerg goes. There are multiple classes, foremost among them Scoundrel/Operative and Shadow/Assassin, who can stealth over and either beat me straight up in a 1v1 or mez me and solo cap. Shadows specced into instant Force Lift can mez me, wait for me to break the CC and then instant force lift me, and if things are hairy enough on the other side my team can't get over to help in time, but regardless there's nothing I can do in that situation.

Now maybe the L2P issue here, definitely the L2P lesson I took from this, is that commandos just shouldn't be solo guarding nodes, and if the balance is such that some classes are supposed to be good in this kind of capacity and others aren't then no one is OP. I was engaged by a class in an area where they excel while playing a class that is not equipped in that area and is arguably very weak and that is ok, no one is OP in that situation. On the other hand if they're balancing things so classes should be relatively equal solo guarding objectives (I would say this is not the case but lets entertain the notion for purposes of discussion) then clearly the Commando in this situation is vastly UP, and the scoundrel/shadow is OP.

Now if the question instead changes "is there anything ANYONE on my team could have done" and the answer is still no, then I begin to think such a class is OP. If I had had 2 to 3 people with me and a single stealther was still reasonably assured of solo capping the node, and there was nothing anyone could do to stop it, then I would personally start to consider such a class unbalanced.

"There is no answer to that" is a possible indicator of being overpowered, but only if the possible answers include anything you're team could have done differently (well, reasonably done differently. Being prescient is not something I expect from even the best players).

I underlined three key points that stood out, first being that Bioware was too ambitious with the classes. As much as people say they want to move away from the trinity of DPS/Tank/Heals, when they're given that, they cry foul and complain. Every class is so unique and brings something different to the table that people choose DPS, see another DPS and cry that they can't do what that other guy is doing. That's how it's DESIGNED and for some reason people don't like that. They do want to have it all, as the second underline states. That's what people want and what they don't receive, so they cry.

This is a fair point, and I agree for the most part. In this context I might consider a class overpowered if they CAN do it all, and a class underpowered if they bring absolutely nothing to the table except middle of the road damage (having no utility but the absolute best damage by a large margin would still be fine in my opinion). Using my example again I don't mind that scoundrels and shadows can do what they did to me. It annoys me to be on the receiving end, but it doesn't strike me as unbalanced, and I actually love the tactical flexibility having someone on your team with that capability brings. Those classes are uniquely suited for that situation, and I know that they tend to flag behind in other situations. If those classes were also the sturdiest, the best damage in pretty much any situation, AND still had that great capability then we might start to talk unbalanced. If my class is not good solo, but can work well in a team setting to where a commando+teammate is much better than teammate+another class, then the fact that I "play well with others" balances out my abyssmal solo capabilities. I'm not saying that this is the case. I personally believe that even with a good team behind you, commando only ever becomes almost viable, and is I think one of the reasons the class is underpowered, but that's another discussion for another thread since I'm pretty sure my opinions on this matter are well known by now.

It's on this issue that I really want BW to chime in more than any other. I'm fine that not all classes are created equal in all situations. I'm fine if each happens to excel in a certain situation over the other ACs and if balance is approached from that perspective because I honestly think the game becomes more interesting. Chess is more interesting than checkers because there are different pieces that do different things, whereas in checkers every piece does the same thing (I realize this isn't the best analogy since technically queen is OP, but every analogy breaks down eventually. Use it for what it is). But I want BW to state plainly and for the record what their vision for each class, and while I'm talking crazy I'll shoot for the moon and say each SPEC, is. If they want to say "well we really don't see Gunnery as a PVP spec. We designed it that way on purpose". Then that's fine. If they want to say "well we really don't envision Commando as a DPS in PVP at all, more of a PVE DPS spec. We feel their best contribution in PVP is as healers" then I'll be disappointed, but at least then I can swallow the "working as intended" line. Some people will manage to break the mold anyway and I'm not saying that how BW envisions things is a precisely how everyone should play their class/spec, but at least if I know what their vision is I can suggest things that make my class more balanced for that envisioned role rather than suggestions that are completely against their vision for the class.

As an example if I believed that they wanted Gunnery to be a viable ranged DPS spec in PVP that had range and damage but low mobility I wouldn't suggest to them that they make all our casts instant. I would suggest that they give us a way to not be interrupted or keep enemies at range. If I feel they DO want us to be mobile, I'd suggest they make our casts instant.

My point is that while some people, perhaps most people, are going to want it all, some of us can and will accept that we can't have it all, but maybe we're asking for the wrong changes because we simply don't know what we're supposed to be doing, and as you said that's a communication issue.

For the third underline, this is communication. All Bioware ever says is some vague stuff about metrics. TALK TO US, tell us specifically what goal they're meant to hit and where each class is currently standing. They've said before that Sage/Sorc need to L2P, Commando DPS is designed to be immobile as tradeoff for the great damage they do, that Operatives aren't supposed to stunlock people from 100% to 0% and that Infiltration Shadows are hit-and-run and shouldn't be taking damage. This is all by design, but there's not enough of that kind of specific "Look, this is what the class is envisioned, this is what this spec gives you the option for, if you don't like it, there's this spec or this other class." They need a class guide/description that's not all fluff and has actual in-game relevance, preferably replacing the text that you get when you choose your AC.

Actually this says everything I said but much more eloquently. Exactly this Bioware. Talk to us. Tell us what your vision is. Communicate that ingame to people choosing ACs so they don't choose a class thinking it's one thing when it's really another thing. Knowing what a class is supposed to be bad at is just as important as knowing what they're supposed to be good at.

That is my personal OP winning, but point is the "matrix" as Bioware calls it need to be deifned and made clear, If you roll sorc you gone be "squishy", but you got ways to survive, jugs can take dmg and do dmg, but not the best etc. etc

I agree entirely. Once we have a clear definition of what they want, then we can reasonably talk about what's OP.

Your posts are always beautifully and eloquently written. You are no fool. However I have either greatly misinterpreted what you have written, or I have missed the point., in that it seems very clear to me what each class should be doing. I have never understood what people want as balance.

 

In my opinion there should not be balance. If there is total balance then it means that every tanking class, for example, should have exactly the same abilities and exactly the same equipment. This would be rubbish in my opinion. There is no other way to achieve balance. Your skill as a player will always outweigh the limitations of your class. In my opinion each class should retain its strengths and limitations.

First off, thank you. Second of all I think you grasp my point for the most part. I agree we shouldn't all be the exact same in respective roles. I used the example of tanks because each is different and each brings something different and somewhat unique to the table and that is what I consider balance.

Let me make the definition of balance as "all classes are able to contribute equally to a team's victory" and then let me better define what I actually mean because that statement is almost void of relevance in practice for any game that isn't checkers.

Obviously I don't mean that every class should be able to do the same thing, but then "contribute equally" becomes very nebulous because how do you quantify stealth vs being able to leap from friend to foe (mobility) vs <insert different ability to contribute from other classes>? You can't really quantify it, so equality stops having a precise meaning and has more of a "I know it when I see it" kinda meaning.

Lets look at football. You have a team of 11 guys. None of them is doing what the other 10 are doing. Each position is contributing in a different way and not all of those ways are glamorous. Yet all of them are contributing in a very meaningful way. The best argument for equality in this situation is that if the team suddenly lost someone who they just replaced with another position, for example if you lost a Linesman and replaced him with a second QB, then the team ultimately suffers for it.

There's a thread open asking for a reason to bring a Commando DPS to rated play.

The question needs to asked and answered for every class. Why should I bring <class> to rated play? All of those answers should not be the same. None of those answers should be "you shouldn't".

edit:

How bout simply adding the Marauder's Leaps to the list of things that are affected by resolve? Its this simple, a marauder is faced down by 5 angry, charging opponenets.

 

Marauder leaps to healer, AOE flashbang, 5 people are stunned for 9 seconds while the marauder runs away.

Response: 3 of the 5 pop their CC break and prepare to fight.

 

Marauder number 2 leaps in, repeats marauder 1's tactic.

 

5 people stunned for 9-18 seconds depending on if they popped a CC break. the 2 marauders then start picking off the weakest to strongest until they are all dead. anyone who tries to run gets doubled leaped, stunning them for 2 seconds per leap. 5 people were CC'ed and killed with minimal resistance.

 

Does anyone else see anything wrong with that scenario??

 

For gods sake put the leap on the damn resolve system. OR wait for GW2 to steal your pvp player base. Whatever you do, if you do nothing, all that money your counting instead of doing your damn jobs will get smaller in the coming months.

The point of this thread is that nothing is that simple. Also there are several threads specifically discussing Marauder. Despite my numerous references to commando, this thread is more about the meta.

1) The scenario you described is ridiculous. 2) if you make roots add to resolve, than you are going to cry a lot harder about Marauders, when they can't be rooted.

 

And for god's sake Awe is NOT a Stun it breaks on damage.

The scenario i describe is NOT rediculous. It happens on a regular basis. If you refuse to acknowledge it then thats your perogative. Ignorance is bliss. But don't say it doesn't happen. If you haven't done it then your a CRAPPY marauder.

If its just a root, why can't we attack or cast? Can u say the power is not working as intended or do you just want to defend an OP class?

Stun=something that prevents you from taking any action. AWE stuns people. doesn't matter if it breaks on damage but i suppose that doesn't matter. As long as u can CC a group of players while you beat the weakest one into submission one after the other i bet your happy.

Defending your class is fine, but don't pretend its not in balance with the other classes. No one is saying nerf your damage, just your UNCOUNTERABLE EFFIN ABILITY TO CC MULTIPLE PEOPLE.

The scenario i describe is NOT rediculous. It happens on a regular basis. If you refuse to acknowledge it then thats your perogative. Ignorance is bliss. But don't say it doesn't happen. If you haven't done it then your a CRAPPY marauder.

 

If its just a root, why can't we attack or cast? Can u say the power is not working as intended or do you just want to defend an OP class?

 

Stun=something that prevents you from taking any action. AWE stuns people. doesn't matter if it breaks on damage but i suppose that doesn't matter. As long as u can CC a group of players while you beat the weakest one into submission one after the other i bet your happy.

 

Defending your class is fine, but don't pretend its not in balance with the other classes. No one is saying nerf your damage, just your UNCOUNTERABLE EFFIN ABILITY TO CC MULTIPLE PEOPLE.

I totally agree withwhat he is saying. The AOE ability stun was designed for PVE mobs and not really intended for PVP purposes. BW couldn't implement balance in this situation with this ability, so they left as is.

Yes, this is a frustrating ability, especially in Voidstar where people are spawning to stop the opposite team from capping the doors and being hit with this ability on stopping 5 people, then immediately getting hit with another stun.

Personally, I think every class should have this ability since it doesn't serve a purpose in PVP as to the benefit usage in PVE.

Let me give an example. Lets say in voidstar I immediately go right and everyone else on my team goes left because that's where the zerg goes. There are multiple classes, foremost among them Scoundrel/Operative and Shadow/Assassin, who can stealth over and either beat me straight up in a 1v1 or mez me and solo cap. Shadows specced into instant Force Lift can mez me, wait for me to break the CC and then instant force lift me, and if things are hairy enough on the other side my team can't get over to help in time, but regardless there's nothing I can do in that situation..

Dont ever ever ever ever ever waste your cc break in that situation, they are just waiting for you to use it. Hold out and profit.

The scenario i describe is NOT rediculous. It happens on a regular basis. If you refuse to acknowledge it then thats your perogative. Ignorance is bliss. But don't say it doesn't happen. If you haven't done it then your a CRAPPY marauder.

 

If its just a root, why can't we attack or cast? Can u say the power is not working as intended or do you just want to defend an OP class?

 

Stun=something that prevents you from taking any action. AWE stuns people. doesn't matter if it breaks on damage but i suppose that doesn't matter. As long as u can CC a group of players while you beat the weakest one into submission one after the other i bet your happy.

 

Defending your class is fine, but don't pretend its not in balance with the other classes. No one is saying nerf your damage, just your UNCOUNTERABLE EFFIN ABILITY TO CC MULTIPLE PEOPLE.

If you think force leap applies a stun, then you re a crappy player.

Awe is not a stun, a stun is something that prevents a player from action, and it doesn't break on damage. Awe is a mezz/daze it breaks on damage. Don't project your desire to be OP on me, I want balance just like everyone else. I play multiple classes I'm not "defending" anything. I'm just playing a game to have fun. I'm not personally invested in the class I play. I am invested however in educating people such as yourself that have no clue.

I totally agree withwhat he is saying. The AOE ability stun was designed for PVE mobs and not really intended for PVP purposes. BW couldn't implement balance in this situation with this ability, so they left as is.

Yes, this is a frustrating ability, especially in Voidstar where people are spawning to stop the opposite team from capping the doors and being hit with this ability on stopping 5 people, then immediately getting hit with another stun.

Personally, I think every class should have this ability since it doesn't serve a purpose in PVP as to the benefit usage in PVE.

Smugglers/IA have an aoe daze, except their's doesn't require that they are in the middle of everyone to use it.

If you are having issues with CC I suggest you use your CC break more responsibly.

Something needs to be changed fast. Im full geared WH tank, all augments, all datacrons. When 2 dps target me (lets say they have wh gear as well) I go down in less then 10 sec. no matter my cd, they don't do a thing, same as I didn't use them.

I saty longer alive on my sentinel (same gear).

If you think force leap applies a stun, then you re a crappy player.

 

Awe is not a stun, a stun is something that prevents a player from action, and it doesn't break on damage. Awe is a mezz/daze it breaks on damage. Don't project your desire to be OP on me, I want balance just like everyone else. I play multiple classes I'm not "defending" anything. I'm just playing a game to have fun. I'm not personally invested in the class I play. I am invested however in educating people such as yourself that have no clue.

It does apply a stun since you can't take any action while they leap to you. classified or not.

YOUR deffinition is different because you like that YOU can do it. If i wanted to be OP i'd roll a marauder and pretend Awe isn't overpowered for pvp.

Dude one to one, your only defending it because A.) you use it and hate to have to re-roll to the next FOTM. B.) you think i'm your friend because i'm actually speaking to you. (btw i'm not, and i can smell a troll)

Back on topic, without a class balance BEFORE the F2P goes live, people may come back, but would you stay if everything that drove you away is still there?

Fix the Marauder leap. Put it on resolve.

It does apply a stun since you can't take any action while they leap to you. classified or not.

 

YOUR deffinition is different because you like that YOU can do it. If i wanted to be OP i'd roll a marauder and pretend Awe isn't overpowered for pvp.

 

Dude one to one, your only defending it because A.) you use it and hate to have to re-roll to the next FOTM. B.) you think i'm your friend because i'm actually speaking to you. (btw i'm not, and i can smell a troll)

 

Back on topic, without a class balance BEFORE the F2P goes live, people may come back, but would you stay if everything that drove you away is still there?

 

Fix the Marauder leap. Put it on resolve.

Leap is not a stun. A stun means you can't take any action AND can be damaged while under its effect and it won't break. This is stuff like Backhand, Electrocute, Force Stun, and Dirty Kick.

Leap is a root, which is viewed as a 100% snare. It prevents movement, but doesn't disable any other abilities. So a Sorc can still Overload, or a Commando can Concussive Charge, or a Sniper can Cover Pulse. Any ability can be used as long as it doesn't involve some kind of auto-movement (in this case, Charge/Leap/Jet Boost/Storm would qualify, meaning none of those skills would be useable while the person who can use them is rooted. Zealous Leap and Obliterate would also qualify).

Secondly, and this is brief, but Awe is classified as a mezz, just like Flashbang. It breaks on any damage (including DoT damage) and lasts for six seconds (unlike Flashbang, which lasts for eight).

Thirdly, putting roots on resolve would slightly nerf some parts of Carnage/Combat specs, but completely buff the crap out of Rage/Focus and Annihilation/Watchman, because it would mean that a Mara or Sent with full resolve could not be stopped for ten seconds. Sure, they couldn't leap to someone and root them, but they all have a native snare, and any Mara or Sent worth the name keeps his target snared 100% of the time. The only reliable way currently to ensure Mara's and Sent's don't have their way with every other class is via rooting and snaring. If you thought there was QQ now, there would be a tsunami of tears if they added roots to resolve. The idiots would trumpet it as a huge victory, while the Mara's and Sent's would rampage across WZ's like nothing seen before.

This is not a QQ thread.

I beg to differ.

PS. Wall of text over 9000!

unfortunately the only people either reading these forums or interested in investing time or effort to improve this game are the players..

Bioware has left the building.

please feel free to spend your 15 bucks a month, they will take what they can get.

unfortunately the only people either reading these forums or interested in investing time or effort to improve this game are the players..

Bioware has left the building.

please feel free to spend your 15 bucks a month, they will take what we can get.

This pretty much. They have stuck their heads in the sand... In contrast GW2 beta forums are full of dev comments and replies, they even were talking to me an others in one of my posts about some of the elementalist signets. How nice to actually see a presence from the dev team, but also get to speak to them.