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Game Update 7.4.1c coming April 3 ×

new PvE parsing idea for 2.5...


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Now that 2.5 has dropped and BW has given us modifications to use for the Operations Dummy we all know and likely not care to admit we have intimacy issues with, I am going to suggest, hopefully with some thoughtful feedback from the parsing community, that we shift the format from the 5 minute criteria that usually requires some careful trimming to one of time (and dps).

 

All the rules and restrictions apply from the 2.4 game-wide thread with class buffs, stims/adrenals, and even alt speccing out to gain stacks etc, but we agree to base the criteria on the Basic Health Mod for the Dummy which renders it 1 million HP and the Armor Debuff. From there, we beat the hell out of it until it is 'defeated', record the time it took on Torparse and also the dps and post both. I submit the 1 million version because 1.5 million just seems like it'll take too much time and is superfluous to the same goal.

 

In other words, how fast can you burn down 1 million health from an operations boss and what is the dps that took you there?

 

This accomplishes a few things:

-removes parse trimming altogether because combat ends the moment the dummy is defeated

-can be used as an overall competition as well as class based

-utilizes the intended strengths of classes with executes (sub 30% buffs and abilities) for more accurate dps charting; we actually get a more realistic number of a boss encounter this way

-convenient for the thread author and the community, so we don't have to have a bunch of fluffy sub-categories ie. i used the armor debuff but not the health one and vice versa

-1 million health is too fast for 5 mins and 1.5 million is likely too long to have any real sustenance (plus, it's just boring)

-is kind of a fresh take on parsing from the 5 minute thing

 

A post would look sort of like this:

Noire - Lethality Operative 3/7/36

Time: xx:xx:xxx

DPS: YYYY

Links to Torparse and AMR

 

Anyway, what do you guys think?

Edited by Transmet
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I like the idea, and having the armor debuff and health module serves two purposes.

1) You have a standardized measuring stick for DPS, with no class having a distinct advantage other another.

2) You eliminate the ability to trim logs, which often reads an unusually high DPS number if you cut off a few seconds and/or end with a lucky crit.

 

The only issue with having 1 million health on the dummy is whether torparse is actually going to register how much health the dummy has. I did a few parses yesterday to check out the changes, and in all instances the log measured a touch under 999k damage being done, so somewhere ~1-1.2k damage was lost on the log. Not sure why but thought it's worth mentioning.

 

TLDR: Yes.

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With regards to the 'not as much damage as the dummy has health' part:

 

In all of my logs, TORParse cut out the final hit that killed the dummy, resulting in anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand less damage done on the final hit, thus robbing me of a few dps. Not a killer issue, and everyone seems to suffer it, but something that might be worth mentioning. It might be prudent to clip the parses from the start of combat to the time the dummy dies, since the dummy dies in the logs before you deal the damage.

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I think something like this is the most sensible way to do it. The 1mil is a tad shorter than the old parses, but the 1.5 is a tad longer, so either way some cool downs are going to be used more or less per class than they were. My favorite part of the "kill the dummy" style is it essentially eliminates the possibility of doctoring parses, or at least makes it much harder.

 

The dummy also seems to ignore the killing blow as it despawns, so the number will never be exactly the hp of the dummy. However, this should be the same time difference for everyone, so we can still use "time to kill" as an appropriate comparison between parses.

Edited by namesaretough
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I think something like this is the most sensible way to do it. The 1mil is a tad shorter than the old parses, but the 1.5 is a tad longer, so either way some cool downs are going to be used more or less per class than they were. My favorite part of the "kill the dummy" style is it essentially eliminates the possibility of doctoring parses, or at least makes it much harder.

 

The dummy also seems to ignore the killing blow as it despawns, so the number will never be exactly the hp of the dummy. However, this should be the same time difference for everyone, so we can still use "time to kill" as an appropriate comparison between parses.

 

Yeah, I'm thinking 1 million HP mod until NiM DF/DP (or w/e the next tier is) gear comes out and switch to the 1.5 million HP accordingly. And yes, it would make doctoring much more difficult to do and much easier to spot.

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I would be in favor of this for two reasons;

1. It means classes like Assassin/Shadow and pyro PT/Merc can get the full benefit of their talents and abilities (below 30% stuff). Which will give a much better representation of the DPS that they can do.

2. Using the armor debuff on the dummy would also be more reflective of what the classes and players can do in raids. As in this day and age what is the chance an armor debuff will not be present on the Op boss? Pretty slim with all the Jugg/Gaurdian tanks and Gunslingers/Snipers running Ops that weave in their global armor reduction ability into their rotation.

 

Also, this would take the Dummy Parse Leaderboard to more of just a "Well on the dummy X class does Y Dps but on boss that not the case". Like Assassins, it is said by a few in my guild that they parse horribly on the existing dummy. Well if these changes are used for the Dummy Parse Leaderboard it makes the Leaderboard become more of a realistic display of what a class will be able to do in a boss fight.

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Yeah, I'm thinking 1 million HP mod until NiM DF/DP (or w/e the next tier is) gear comes out and switch to the 1.5 million HP accordingly. And yes, it would make doctoring much more difficult to do and much easier to spot.

 

Why not simply start with the 1.5mil mod right now? That would eliminate the need to switch later.

 

Or was the plan to eventually archive yet another "generation" of DPS leaderboards? :p

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Why not simply start with the 1.5mil mod right now? That would eliminate the need to switch later.

 

Or was the plan to eventually archive yet another "generation" of DPS leaderboards? :p

 

As stated before, 1.5 is too much. The parse would end up being around 7 mins, which is a) redundant in terms of cds. It would add no value and parses would be less.

b) boring

Edited by Transmet
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As stated before, 1.5 is too much. The parse would end up being around 7 mins, which is a) redundant in terms of cds. It would add no value and parses would be less.

 

b) boring

 

Not to mention people will still want to do "multiple" 1.5 million training dummy fights just to get that one lucky crit parse :p

Edited by paowee
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Personally i think it should be up to the player whether to use a 1 million or 1.5 million health dummy.

I did a parse earlier where i killed the dummy in under 5 mins with 1 million hp and don't mind going for 7 mins but others may very well feel different. already some parses go into 7 mins.

Edited by emania
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Personally i think it should be up to the player whether to use a 1 million or 1.5 million health dummy.

I did a parse earlier where i killed the dummy in under 5 mins with 1 million hp and don't mind going for 7 mins but others may very well feel different. already some parses go into 7 mins.

 

i cant see a single parse in the top 40 parses that go into 7 mins. in fact, and i haven't actually counted, but i'll say that 90% + of them don't pass the 5:30 mark. the longer you go on, typically, the more RNG goes against you. it's like playing cards in vegas, with very few exceptions. your best dps will come within the first million typically just before the 5 min mark, which is where the 1 mil mark lands nicely. having too many choices/sub-categories in a leaderboard ruins the point of it.

Edited by Transmet
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As stated before, 1.5 is too much. The parse would end up being around 7 mins, which is a) redundant in terms of cds. It would add no value and parses would be less.

b) boring

 

Right... but you mentioned a switch might be made when the next tier of gear comes out. Did you expect the parsing to get that much less "redundant" and "boring" with new gear?

 

Certainly, there will be individuals capable of hitting 4k DPS in current gear - which would be just over 4 minutes on the 1mil dummy. With newer tiers of gear, the fight time would probably dip below 4 minutes, virtually necessitating a switch to the 1.5mil dummy modifier.

 

After 78 gear came out, the thread was archived. Now that there are new dummy modifiers, I believe the intent was to archive the current leaderboard. And with a switch between 1mil and 1.5mil modifiers, there could be yet another thread reset... idk, perhaps I'm the only one that cares about leaderboard continuity.

 

Personally i think it should be up to the player whether to use a 1 million or 1.5 million health dummy.

I did a parse earlier where i killed the dummy in under 5 mins with 1 million hp and don't mind going for 7 mins but others may very well feel different. already some parses go into 7 mins.

 

If both modifiers were allowed, the highest parses would come from dummies with 1mil HP. There's less time between the opening burst and the under 30% execute phase, and parses with lucky overall crit% would be more common over the shorter duration.

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i cant see a single parse in the top 40 parses that go into 7 mins. in fact, and i haven't actually counted, but i'll say that 90% + of them don't pass the 5:30 mark. the longer you go on, typically, the more RNG goes against you. it's like playing cards in vegas, with very few exceptions. your best dps will come within the first million typically just before the 5 min mark, which is where the 1 mil mark lands nicely. having too many choices/sub-categories in a leaderboard ruins the point of it.

 

This is true of classes who have a large opener and then fall off but not all classes function that way. Even if they did allowing someone to parse for a longer length is in no way a trick or cheat, If you want people to parse on the dummy for 1 million hp there is no reason you shouldn't accept parses for 1.5 million hp. I also think there will be 1 or 2 classes who parse higher with the 1.5 million mainly df and watchmen.

 

Also there would be no need for a new section it could just be added to the posting

e.g.

Dps Name - Dps - spec -1/1.5 mill

Edited by emania
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I like the idea for sure, but it needs to be armor debuff & 1.5m. Most of the people who will be parsing the serious numbers are going to be killing the 1m dummy before five minutes.

 

Again, though, I like the idea. It removes the necessity of trimming, it removes the armor debuff differences, it allows for <30% extra damage, and most importantly it makes parse hacking a lot more difficult. You can't edit the log to give numbers that you didn't hit, because the dummy has a specific amount of health. Additionally, there's no need to worry about other players debuffing the target with the armor debuff - it's already there.

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Right... but you mentioned a switch might be made when the next tier of gear comes out. Did you expect the parsing to get that much less "redundant" and "boring" with new gear?

 

Certainly, there will be individuals capable of hitting 4k DPS in current gear - which would be just over 4 minutes on the 1mil dummy. With newer tiers of gear, the fight time would probably dip below 4 minutes, virtually necessitating a switch to the 1.5mil dummy modifier.

 

After 78 gear came out, the thread was archived. Now that there are new dummy modifiers, I believe the intent was to archive the current leaderboard. And with a switch between 1mil and 1.5mil modifiers, there could be yet another thread reset... idk, perhaps I'm the only one that cares about leaderboard continuity.

 

 

 

If both modifiers were allowed, the highest parses would come from dummies with 1mil HP. There's less time between the opening burst and the under 30% execute phase, and parses with lucky overall crit% would be more common over the shorter duration.

 

yes, we are in agreement....im not sure what counter point you're trying to make here. When the next tier comes out, switch to 1.5 million for an accurate parse. It would be le redundant because of the increase of damage and work out to nearly the same time....

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This is true of classes who have a large opener and then fall off but not all classes function that way. Even if they did allowing someone to parse for a longer length is in no way a trick or cheat, If you want people to parse on the dummy for 1 million hp there is no reason you shouldn't accept parses for 1.5 million hp. I also think there will be 1 or 2 classes who parse higher with the 1.5 million mainly df and watchmen.

 

Also there would be no need for a new section it could just be added to the posting

e.g.

Dps Name - Dps - spec -1/1.5 mill

 

Of course there would be a need for one, time....it's a totally different criteria...

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I like the idea for sure, but it needs to be armor debuff & 1.5m. Most of the people who will be parsing the serious numbers are going to be killing the 1m dummy before five minutes.

 

Again, though, I like the idea. It removes the necessity of trimming, it removes the armor debuff differences, it allows for <30% extra damage, and most importantly it makes parse hacking a lot more difficult. You can't edit the log to give numbers that you didn't hit, because the dummy has a specific amount of health. Additionally, there's no need to worry about other players debuffing the target with the armor debuff - it's already there.

 

Yes, the idea is to eliminate the 5 minute criteria...and go for faster times. If the overall intention of parsing is to have an atypical standard which is 100% uptime and yet make it comparable to actual ops engagements, then timing the dps burn to 0 is the most efficient way; much moreso than standing there for 5 mins swinging away.

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yes, we are in agreement....im not sure what counter point you're trying to make here. When the next tier comes out, switch to 1.5 million for an accurate parse. It would be le redundant because of the increase of damage and work out to nearly the same time....

 

I was arguing for the use of 1.5mil HP dummy parses to start with, instead of switching to them later.

 

I think parses barely over 4 minutes are ridiculously short, but I realize that's a subjective opinion and that most people don't think it gets too ridiculous until parses actually go under 4 minutes (next tier). Yes, a parse on the 1.5mil dummy would be 6.5 - 7 minutes long, but I doubt the next tier of gear would bring that down much below 6 minutes...

 

However, so many people have uploaded parses against the 1mil HP dummy now, it seems the decision has already been made. :(

Edited by greg_biochem
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I was arguing for the use of 1.5mil HP dummy parses to start with, instead of switching to them later.

 

I think parses barely over 4 minutes are ridiculously short, but I realize that's a subjective opinion and that most people don't think it gets too ridiculous until parses actually go under 4 minutes (next tier). Yes, a parse on the 1.5mil dummy would be 6.5 - 7 minutes long, but I doubt the next tier of gear would bring that down much below 6 minutes...

 

However, so many people have uploaded parses against the 1mil HP dummy now, it seems the decision has already been made. :(

 

Not exactly. People are uploading (pointlessly, I might add) parses onto the old threads, but both of the ones I follow have stated or at least been considering the creation of a new 2.5 thread. So no, at least as far as I am concerned, the decision has not been made. The parses in the old threads are just people trying to jump the gun and look cool with their big numbers, but really they're relative to 2.5 and nothing before it.

 

On the topic of the dummy, though, I still think it needs to be a 1.5m dummy. People are putting up 3.9k parses with bounty hunter specs. When people like Beastfury parse carnage, and people like Claimed parse sabo bomb spec, you're going to get 4k parses minimum. Unfortunately, on a 1m HP dummy, a 4000-dps parse is only going to take 250 seconds, which is to say, ten seconds over 4 minutes. If you think the next tier of gear is not going to push that time under 4 minutes, you have another thing coming.

 

For now and for the future of parsing, we have to standardize it at 1.5m. That's not to say there can't be a separate blitz leaderboard (of 500k and 1m HP dummy parses) but the standard sustained DPS parse measurement must use a 1.5m dummy.

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Not exactly. People are uploading (pointlessly, I might add) parses onto the old threads, but both of the ones I follow have stated or at least been considering the creation of a new 2.5 thread. So no, at least as far as I am concerned, the decision has not been made. The parses in the old threads are just people trying to jump the gun and look cool with their big numbers, but really they're relative to 2.5 and nothing before it.

 

On the topic of the dummy, though, I still think it needs to be a 1.5m dummy. People are putting up 3.9k parses with bounty hunter specs. When people like Beastfury parse carnage, and people like Claimed parse sabo bomb spec, you're going to get 4k parses minimum. Unfortunately, on a 1m HP dummy, a 4000-dps parse is only going to take 250 seconds, which is to say, ten seconds over 4 minutes. If you think the next tier of gear is not going to push that time under 4 minutes, you have another thing coming.

 

For now and for the future of parsing, we have to standardize it at 1.5m. That's not to say there can't be a separate blitz leaderboard (of 500k and 1m HP dummy parses) but the standard sustained DPS parse measurement must use a 1.5m dummy.

 

I tend to agree. Frankly, the whole notion of parsing lately has me uninspired the way it is. I'm just looking for another way, more of an accurate and less of an RNG focused way to deliver a parse. It won't really be worth it for another few weeks anyway, when everyone in the top parses will be in BiS, not just a few who are running 2 alts plus mains every week.

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And none have 100% uptime...what's your point exactly?

 

Agreed. Bonecrusher doesn't exist. Foreman crusher doesn't exist. Karagga doesn't exist. Neither does Kephess TFB, nor Thrasher. Nefra also does not exist, neither does Grobthok.

:eek:

Edited by idnewton
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Agreed. Bonecrusher doesn't exist. Foreman crusher doesn't exist. Karagga doesn't exist. Neither does Kephess TFB, nor Thrasher. Nefra also does not exist, neither does Grobthok.

:eek:

 

You need to examine what 100% uptime is....

Edited by Transmet
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