If someone was above and below sitting and waiting, then it should have been.

No. I'm not some newb Bomber circling at a fixed speed and predictable course. I'm a Scout with Tensor Field up for half the time. I am constantly changing throttle speed and bearing. My lead indicator is dancing all over the place. Even if you manage to line up a shot, you then have my Evasion to contend with. My base Evasion is 33%. When Tensor Field is up (24/60 seconds), it's 39%.

An errant shot might get through, but at worst it's going to do a minor bit of shield-piercing damage, just like the occasional Cluster Missile that gets through. And the moment I started taking any sustained damage, I flipped sides.

This is why missiles need to a viable anti-Scout, anti-Evasion weapon. But the fact that Distortion Field gives you not only great defense against lasers, but also a second missile break (which no other non-engine component but EMP Field does) points toward DF just being too good. It really needs to be good at one thing or the other, or else a lot worse at both, in my opinion.

I agree with your statement in regards to distortion field and that it could use some tweaking - Verain's suggestion is nice of upping the lock-on time while it is active.

My apologies if you feel I was degrading your abilities. That was not, and never will be, my intention. What I am trying demonstrate is that you should have been dead much quicker than 5 minutes. I've done the very same thing before - hold a node from cap for quite a few minutes, even a whole match once or twice. But when someone is in an optimal position - you can juke just as fast as someone can move a targeting reticle.

Let's consider some numbers - it's what I'm more comfortable with.

I'm taking these things as given:

Distortion field will last you a full revolution around the satellite.

A strike build with ions that drain engine power, heavies or quads, and clusters.

None of the strikes chose the accuracy buff companion (assuming the worst here).

It take approximately 3-5 seconds to traverse the diameter of a satellite while still working to maintain some line of sight. This would include the time in which you would be on the side of the satellite prior to where you would LOS with the top or the bottom.

There are optimal points both above and below a satellite where there are no LOS issues for that hemisphere. The closest you can get to this is weaving the tips.

Ion cannons at parking range have about 100% accuracy and 150 RPMS.

Heavy laser cannon at the same range would have about 105% accuracy and 120 RPMS.

For the sake of averages we will say that your evasion is 36%.

Maths time:

In 4 seconds a strike should have fired close to 10 ion shots - only one of which is require to completely deplete an entire shield arc. Considering that the chance to hit is 100 - 36 = 64% so at least 6 of those shots should hit you. If we say the pilot has a 50% hit/miss ratio then only 3 of those shots hit. If one hits you during the first 2 seconds and the other one in the last two seconds, all your shields will be stripped.

In the next 4 seconds as you transpire across the other side of the satellite a strike should have fired close to 8 heavy laser shots - only two of which are required to send you into the void. Chance to hit here would be 105 - 36 = 69% so at least 5 of those shots hit you. Again, taking into account the 50% hit/miss ratio, let's say two of those shots hit you. This means you are dead.

All of this is neglecting the harassment of cluster missile locks.

With these considerations - you should last 4-6 times around a satellite. And I'm just counting 2 pilots in this scenario. They will have to give up the cap, but they do so to kill you and retake it.

Far from me the idea to contradict you, Nemarus, but I think a ship with Quick-charge may have outlasted your build in this situation.

That aside, I completely agree it is quite ridiculous to be able to last that long against four Strikes.

In my opinion, more than showing the strength of Distortion Field -while it has undeniably a role-, it shows how ridiculously easy it is to stall time around a satellite. Or to be more accurate, how easy it has always been, as long as foes can only rely on dogfighting.

You basically more or less revived how it was before bombers were added... Pretty much anyone could hold a satellite almost indefinitely unless the enemy team was grossly outnumbering or brought Gunships.

The amount of "LOS cutters" provided by satellite is unholy, if you ask me. Maybe that removing/reducing a few of them...

blablabla

Just to give you an idea.. I see very few pilots hitting consistently 50% accuracy in any ship beside a gunship. I can say that I'm one of those.. And even I wouldn't get 2 shots off on a scout hugging a node. Your napkin maths don't stand the reality. The tracking pen you let out of your maths would keep someone with HLC to hit anything that would be more than 5° off center.

I see most strike fighters with the build I mention have 40% or higher, personally I usually am around 65% with it.

Recall the stated given of, "There are optimal points both above and below a satellite where there are no LOS issues for that hemisphere. The closest you can get to this is weaving the tips."

With fully spec'd turn rate, moving the ship while aiming shouldn't be an issue for your 5° at 4-5k away from the ship. The distance traversed by the scout will easily be within the kill zone. If my napkin maths aren't enough, I could break into some trig - it's a Law of Sines problem of the ambiguous case.

Just some numbers to back up what I'm saying - he should have been dead much much sooner.

And with my Spearpoint build, there's no way they could've gotten to the node before I captured it at the start of the match.

Tensor+Interdiction?

Obviously a bomber, gunship, or scout, in place of one of the strikes would have solved the problem. That is, in and of itself, a really damned big problem.

Diversity should be a good thing. Stacking all of the same should be bad play.

Diversity should be a good thing. Stacking all of the same should be bad play.

You misunderstood. 2 GS. 1 bomber. 1 scout. And Nemmy would have been in the situation where 4 strikes put him.

That's the problem with strikes. They are underwhelming at everything. Even at being underwhelming.

Is ti another thread 'nerf the DF please, because I cant hit ships with my thermite torpedo everytime I lock"? ...

Because if four 'solid' pilots in strikes with clusters (and laser cannons) positioned correctly can't kill single T3 scout then either pilots are rookies or the story is maked up.

. Unless you were lagging, then it looks like here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=752062 - but seriously DF doesn't have anything to do with lag jumping.

And even with lag it is still possible to hit with laser cannons...especially with 'one above. one below' combination.

 

My apologies if you feel I was degrading your abilities. That was not, and never will be, my intention. What I am trying demonstrate is that you should have been dead much quicker than 5 minutes. I've done the very same thing before - hold a node from cap for quite a few minutes, even a whole match once or twice. But when someone is in an optimal position - you can juke just as fast as someone can move a targeting reticle.

 

No offense taken Sorry if I sounded defensive.

Is ti another thread 'nerf the DF please, because I cant hit ships with my thermite torpedo everytime I lock"? ...

Not it's more like a buff strike.. 4 of them can't even kill a good scout :cool:

It's a little late in the post for my first foray, but from the moment I read the OP I was shaking my head....

I have a build on a T3 scout much like yours and it excells at exactly what you described. This is not so much a function of DF allowing you to hold a node.... but the multi functionality of all the mobility this craft has to offer (which is A LOT)

I have been able to hold nodes against strong non bomber pilots until help arrives (or until I eventually die if no help comes), with maxed Tensor you can literally run circles around the sat and break missiles with nothing but LOS. At times when they get smart and stop chasing I end up having to use DF, Snap Turn, and every bit of trick flying I have learned in order to stay alive.

The point being that DF is not the sole ability allowing you to hold a node while flying evasively against multiple pilots, nor is it the linchpin ability making the whole thing possible. In order to do this effectively you have to use everything the craft has to offer, and on top of that make little to no mistakes. Its not so easy to quantify as your anecdote implies.

Your anecdote is merely an example of what a properly specced and flown T3 can do (get places fast, fly evasively, capture or hold nodes against non bombers) and I think this is part of what the craft is meant for. Not some proof of concept of the OP nature of DF.

Tensor+Interdiction?

Tensor plus power dive (speed) is the fastest type 3 scout build.

Diversity should be a good thing. Stacking all of the same should be bad play.

Sure thing. But four bombers would have had no problem at all. Neither would four gunships. Four scouts might have taken awhile, but all would be way more effective than four strikes.

No one is claiming strikes should be the master at this role, but the point is that they feel inadequate, substantially worse than the other ships, and that this is wrong.

Also, it's FOUR V ONE.

The point being that DF is not the sole ability allowing you to hold a node while flying evasively against multiple pilots, nor is it the linchpin ability making the whole thing possible.

You are correct, but I do think the point stands. I mean, you bring up snap turn, but snap turn and k-turn make big tradeoffs to be good at a node. Disto doesn't really, and I do think that it's the silliest of the things.

Tensor plus power dive (speed) is the fastest type 3 scout build.

Actually when it comes to getting to the satellite fastest, I think barrel roll wins out. You aren't going to come close to running out of energy.

edit: derp, didn't read "type 3"

You are correct, but I do think the point stands. I mean, you bring up snap turn, but snap turn and k-turn make big tradeoffs to be good at a node. Disto doesn't really, and I do think that it's the silliest of the things.

Agreed, just wanted to point out that the T3 is really good at sat humping and that is not solely due to DF. I have this problem with "bad logic" and pointing it out. Even if I agreed with the premise, the logic needs to be sound for me to leave it alone.

IMO there are too many variables in Nem's story to make any meaningful point about DF by itself. Not only are there all of the other abilities on the T3 that contributed but also nem's skill in flying (which is impossible to quantify) I think its a great story, but a bad logical argument to prove DF needs tweaks.

Just because someone can hold a sat against 4+ defenders is not proof that a class or a ability needs to be nerfed. There are factors like: A) Exceptional flying // B) Terrible Opponents that make a huge difference. Even at my best defensive flying if a good battlescout comes while I am sat humping in a T3 he can outright kill me or whittle me down to knock me off the node.

It's not really a question of scouts or strikes. I've been doing exactly the same in multiple ship types, including a T1 strike versus scouts. You get hit more often, but you can also eat more damage, and the tiny amount of shield penetration often isn't sufficient to outdamage your hull repair.

On the other hand, I've been able to peel off scouts trying the same in my strike fighter. I rarely got a lock - I use concussions, not clusters - but both heavies at range and rapid fire lasers at pointblank are doing pretty fine. You don't really need to connect that often to kill an evasion scout.

Tensor plus power dive (speed) is the fastest type 3 scout build.

I need 17 seconds to Denon B (Tensor + Interdiction). In order to have a comparative times.

I experienced the almost exact same story that's described in the first post. Only I was defending the node in a stock Star Guard. Constant pressure on me with 3-5 enemies trying to take the node but they mostly just scratched my shield. Finally got killed after taking out a bomber (didn't want it to place mines etc.) and exposing myself to a gunship.

If you survive that long against so many opponents they lack coordination, skill or experience to deal with the situation.

Well Nemarus, I think a lot of this really speaks to the weakness of strike fighters in pure dogfighting near close cover.

Strikes generally lack the turn rate to chase a scout well. Not that they can't get it, but that the boost endurance you have to give up to get it is so punishing that very few people do it, because you wind up a lot like a bomber, stuck defending a single location (or at least relocating is a major undertaking).

Assuming you've got the crazy needed to run a turning build, then you run into weapon selection. The options are RFLs, Ion, Clusters, and LLC. Adequate if not stellar options, but specializing in close range options limits overall play even more. You wind up slow and limited to close range. The lack of serious burst damage also hurts a lot near cover.

I don't think DF's missile break was helping as much as you think it was. Against concussions it would be quite powerful because only a few locks would be slipping through your LOSing. Against 2 or more ships worth of clusters though, they'd be able to just drown you in missiles if you didn't use your engine break, and maybe even if you did.

Tactically they made a bit of a mistake having people to the side. The should have all gone high-low pincher, to the sides, the panels offer the defender too much LOS based protection.

Gunnery skill may have also played a role. That's a nice open node, so getting good hits with heavies shouldn't have been excessively difficult at ranges of 4-7 km.

I suppose it also speaks to the advantage that cooldown based defenses have when burst damage is low or absent, and time on target is very brief.

Nice scout flying though. You managed to take advantage of almost all of the strike class weaknesses at the same time. No surprise you did very well.

When it comes to the sats a strike is really more at home clearing turrets, clearing bombers, or being the ones doing the defensive humping. Clearing scouts off is tricky even with optimal conditions, and it doesn't sound like those strikes had everything going their way.