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Class Changes: Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow


EricMusco

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Or juste abuse even more the system by playing skank. Seems like it's what they want anyway... :rolleyes:

 

But yeah, still waiting for an explanation as to why they nerfed both hatred and Deception for what should have been a buff to hatred.

And if it isn't a nerf, I'm still waiting for an explanation as well, currently the information relayed doesn't make sense at all, especially if you consider that some ranged class (mercenary) got to keep the whole utility.

They explained all they needed to.

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They explained all they needed to.

 

They did not actually. They presented it as a buff to hatred, but in the end both are taking a huge nerf due to the removing of the 30% Damage Reduction while stunned.

Assassin wasn't the class with a broken DtPS, they showed it by their intent of buffing hatred. Still, I'm waiting on an explanation as to why they nerfed it anyway while letting other class with way bigger DtPS issue not getting the long deserved nerf.

Until you're showing peoples here that dps shadow/sin were taking too few damage when compared to other class, then no it isn't justified nor explained anywhere ^^

Edited by supertimtaf
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They did not actually. They presented it as a buff to hatred, but in the end both are taking a huge nerf due to the removing of the 30% Damage Reduction while stunned.

Assassin wasn't the class with a broken DtPS, they showed it by their intent of buffing hatred. Still, I'm waiting on an explanation as to why they nerfed it anyway while letting other class with way bigger DtPS issue not getting the long deserved nerf.

Until you're showing peoples here that dps shadow/sin were taking too few damage when compared to other class, then no it isn't justified nor explained anywhere ^^

They have said they make changes based on factual data, not what people "think" is accurate.

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They have said they make changes based on factual data, not what people "think" is accurate.

 

Like they gave Mandos their DCDs based on factual data? You don't know that anymore than anyone else. I'm betting they made the changes based on some arbitrary parameters they set, including feedback and bringing specs inline. For example, they took away the 30% damage reduced while stunned from all DPS specs, even though it does not affect all specs equally. Infiltration shadows will take a lot more damage than troopers, and serenity even more.

 

They also gave all tanks a 30% DR while stunned, even though (again) it doesn't affect them all equally. Vanguard tanks have more DR than either other tank spec, they'll basically laugh at any non-internal/elemental damage while stunned. Especially with their shield up.

 

I don't like this change, shadows are already the squishiest specs in the game. They rely on active cooldowns to survive, and they don't get them when they're stunned.

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Like they gave Mandos their DCDs based on factual data? You don't know that anymore than anyone else. I'm betting they made the changes based on some arbitrary parameters they set, including feedback and bringing specs inline. For example, they took away the 30% damage reduced while stunned from all DPS specs, even though it does not affect all specs equally. Infiltration shadows will take a lot more damage than troopers, and serenity even more.

 

They also gave all tanks a 30% DR while stunned, even though (again) it doesn't affect them all equally. Vanguard tanks have more DR than either other tank spec, they'll basically laugh at any non-internal/elemental damage while stunned. Especially with their shield up.

 

I don't like this change, shadows are already the squishiest specs in the game. They rely on active cooldowns to survive, and they don't get them when they're stunned.

Sounds like a player problem, not a class problem. Again, they have stated they use internal data for changes, so it is very likely that the average player is playing their toon differently than you are, and changes were made based on class average data. Much more likely that you not fitting the average mold than them just pulling arbitrary numbers out of thin air. They have a job investment on the line if they're not using data that supports their changes.

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Sounds like a player problem, not a class problem. Again, they have stated they use internal data for changes, so it is very likely that the average player is playing their toon differently than you are, and changes were made based on class average data. Much more likely that you not fitting the average mold than them just pulling arbitrary numbers out of thin air. They have a job investment on the line if they're not using data that supports their changes.

 

The main issue we have here is that no one have seen those data numbers.

It's like santa claus for kids you know, the fact that you tell them it exist doesn't exactly mean it's true. Furthermore, I really doubt that if they use their data it is somewhat accurate, especially in PvP. I don't know if you've been playing ranked seriously or not since S8, but I, along others players, did. Assassins weren't exactly the "top class" in ranked. Merc, snipers and mara were, and still are due to the imbalance in DtPS for these spec compared to others. The change will be felt even more for Powertech dps, who was by far the most fragile class in pvp (more than sorcerer, because sorc have at least some defensive ability). They removed one of their main DR buff nonetheless, even though peoples have spent a year complaining about PT being way too fragile.

As a matter of fact, guess who got to keep the 30% DR ? Mercenary. Isn't that strange ? The class as tough as any tank spec in the game got to keep that. Peoples also have been complaining about this big joke that was released on 5.0 with god mercenary. And still it isn't fixed now.

 

 

Again, and it's not against you, but until they clearly show us, with real, factual data, that these class (Juggernaut/Powertech/Assassin) where taking too few damage in their dps spec, then I will say that they clearly have no idea on how to balance this game. I'm really sorry for saying this, but we are a year after the initial changes were released. In this entire year, the complaints have never diminished or changed whatsoever. But still, the dev team keep ignoring the issues peoples keep talking about. And we're talking about global feedback, something that every player who knows a bit (not really much) about this game will say. So please, stop talking like this is some "L2P issue", because it isn't, or else that would mean that the entire playerbase of this game has some serious L2P issue, which I seriously doubt. :)

Edited by supertimtaf
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I won't rehash the death by a thousand cuts we've suffered as the Devs have changed the dynamics of classes. Long story short is they have made it impossible for infiltration/deception to do what it was supposed to do...be a brutally bursty class that can overwhelm but be a glass cannon. Well, they have actually furthered the glass part. Squishy will be our middle name given how long it will take to kill anyone, particularly the truly OP ranged classes that they didn't nerf as should have been done. Anyway, the 5.5 changes really sucked and the utility/class changes in 5.6 will really destroy the viability of this toon. I fully expect infiltration shadows to become virtually extinct once the 5.6 changes come out on the 28th.

 

I don't consider standing near a node in stealth and serving as an alarm system that delays caps until help arrives to be really fun game after game after game, but aside from guard duty and sap capping, where will infiltration be better to use than another class in the 5.6 world? Our damage won't be as huge as other classes, not to mention they've made our ability for huge hits to be even more random and harder. Sentinels and slingers will seem to be a better choice from a damage standpoint. When it comes to survivability, we were already squishy and at risk due to the changes over the years, and now 5.5 and 5.6 will ensure we're even more squishy. Chain stuns will kill us much more quickly, and it is impossible to avoid being chain stunned in a lot of situations.

 

I'm really ticked at what they've done and intend to do. Frankly, they should have changed things, just as they did when the sentinels/marauders brought up their beefs with 5.6, but as usual, we get short end of the stick. I can only hope they quickly see the disastrous results of their 5.6 shadow nerfs when they go live and decide to change things quickly.... but given that it will be holiday season, I doubt they'll do anything until the new year, if ever. In the meantime, they'll just oversee a further migration of players from melee to ranged, or from the game altogether.

Edited by Kirtastropohe
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The main issue we have here is that no one have seen those data numbers.

It's like santa claus for kids you know, the fact that you tell them it exist doesn't exactly mean it's true. Furthermore, I really doubt that if they use their data it is somewhat accurate, especially in PvP. I don't know if you've been playing ranked seriously or not since S8, but I, along others players, did. Assassins weren't exactly the "top class" in ranked. Merc, snipers and mara were, and still are due to the imbalance in DtPS for these spec compared to others. The change will be felt even more for Powertech dps, who was by far the most fragile class in pvp (more than sorcerer, because sorc have at least some defensive ability). They removed one of their main DR buff nonetheless, even though peoples have spent a year complaining about PT being way too fragile.

As a matter of fact, guess who got to keep the 30% DR ? Mercenary. Isn't that strange ? The class as tough as any tank spec in the game got to keep that. Peoples also have been complaining about this big joke that was released on 5.0 with god mercenary. And still it isn't fixed now.

 

 

Again, and it's not against you, but until they clearly show us, with real, factual data, that these class (Juggernaut/Powertech/Assassin) where taking too few damage in their dps spec, then I will say that they clearly have no idea on how to balance this game. I'm really sorry for saying this, but we are a year after the initial changes were released. In this entire year, the complaints have never diminished or changed whatsoever. But still, the dev team keep ignoring the issues peoples keep talking about. And we're talking about global feedback, something that every player who knows a bit (not really much) about this game will say. So please, stop talking like this is some "L2P issue", because it isn't, or else that would mean that the entire playerbase of this game has some serious L2P issue, which I seriously doubt. :)

I dont know of any MMO company that provides the type of data you are asking to be transparent about, so the likelihood of them starting that trend to open up to more scrutiny is unlikely. And i dont blame them considering the dynamic nature of these types of games, everyone and their mother would come up with some scenario that could show that specific data doesnt merit the change. Oh wait, that happens already, without the data. And again, we are talking about average data, not top end data, so while their may be some top tier players having respective success or failure with their specific class, the changes suggest that it is not a game-wide issue for the average player. There will always be deviations in results the further you move away from the mean, and those deviations wont necessarily be equal for all situations either, so its an impossible request to expect balance the entire way through, at every level, and for every variation of skill the thousands of players have. Catering to the masses is the most efficient plan, and based on the changes, the disparities we see at end game are obviously not there for the average player. So essentially, the conclusion that can be drawn by the criticism is that the changes dont cater to your, or my, or anyone specifics skill level, and perspectives of each will be skewed and different than the average person layer.

 

And btw, they arent even done with changes to classes.

Edited by olagatonjedi
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I won't rehash the death by a thousand cuts we've suffered as the Devs have changed the dynamics of classes. Long story short is they have made it impossible for infiltration/deception to do what it was supposed to do...be a brutally bursty class that can overwhelm but be a glass cannon. Well, they have actually furthered the glass part. Squishy will be our middle name given how long it will take to kill anyone, particularly the truly OP ranged classes that they didn't nerf as should have been done. Anyway, the 5.5 changes really sucked and the utility/class changes in 5.6 will really destroy the viability of this toon. I fully expect infiltration shadows to become virtually extinct once the 5.6 changes come out on the 28th.

 

I don't consider standing near a node in stealth and serving as an alarm system that delays caps until help arrives to be really fun game after game after game, but aside from guard duty and sap capping, where will infiltration be better to use than another class in the 5.6 world? Our damage won't be as huge as other classes, not to mention they've made our ability for huge hits to be even more random and harder. Sentinels and slingers will seem to be a better choice from a damage standpoint. When it comes to survivability, we were already squishy and at risk due to the changes over the years, and now 5.5 and 5.6 will ensure we're even more squishy. Chain stuns will kill us much more quickly, and it is impossible to avoid being chain stunned in a lot of situations.

 

I'm really ticked at what they've done and intend to do. Frankly, they should have changed things, just as they did when the sentinels/marauders brought up their beefs with 5.6, but as usual, we get short end of the stick. I can only hope they quickly see the disastrous results of their 5.6 shadow nerfs when they go live and decide to change things quickly.... but given that it will be holiday season, I doubt they'll do anything until the new year, if ever. In the meantime, they'll just oversee a further migration of players from melee to ranged, or from the game altogether.

As was advertised from day 1 of this dynamic game, the game changed, so you must adapt your gameplay. That very well can include your role.

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Just wait bro, I already know a few good sins in 248 gear who started playing Mara, 'cause sins are totally broken right now. From bugged Phantom Stride to nerfed dps that's totally RNG now.

 

"Deception sins overperformed"

 

The best BW joke in 2017.

 

Yeah, I rolled a sentinel because it seems like they will be the only viable jedi type DPS, but I don't really enjoy playing it, not to mention I don't really know how to use it yet. Heck I rolled a slinger too, hoping to find something, but of course, I don't want to be playing any toon but my shadow, but given how they have/are screwing us, seems foolish to gimp myself and use it.

Edited by Kirtastropohe
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Just wait bro, I already know a few good sins in 248 gear who started playing Mara, 'cause sins are totally broken right now. From bugged Phantom Stride to nerfed dps that's totally RNG now.

 

"Deception sins overperformed"

 

The best BW joke in 2017.

 

You should check this out too, just give it some upvotes if you can. It seems every sin player on this forum disagree with these changes, go and express yourself about those everywhere, be loud and proud, maybe we'll be heard like Carnage Mara players. :)

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You should check this out too, just give it some upvotes if you can. It seems every sin player on this forum disagree with these changes, go and express yourself about those everywhere, be loud and proud, maybe we'll be heard like Carnage Mara players. :)

 

You are mistaken if you think that Carnage Marauders got a good deal. What they are getting done to them is terrible. What they have done here is say originally "We you have to eat two s**t sandwhiches", than later on come back and say "We've decieded you only need to eat one s**t sandwhich". We are still losing unjustly, just not quite as bad.

 

The change was based on clipping, which they said was not intended after 3+ years and three different metas [obviously, they knew all along about it and were fine with it til now]. Mind you clipping is not a utility and is not effected by any utility, and if you look at the utility changes for all the specs you will find that carnage is the only spec on the list that has no utility mentioned as its not based on a utility. This is nothing short of a second DPS nerf. Carnage is the only spec in the game that is recieving two DPS nerfs from the "class balance" patches.

 

Clipping only ever provided one extra attack on the beserk ferocity window. The non-beserk ferocity window did not need any clipping to get three attacks. Think of it this way, three second window, three instant attacks. Doesn't take a mathmatician to figure that out. Now this was all explained to the devs and that is why they gave one attack back on the beserk window. This was not a favor, this was not "big of them" this was "opps we messed up", and even though they know full well that clipping was not needed to get three atttacks into the non-beserk ferocity window, they are still taking it away from us unjustly.If you simply remove the ability to clip that leaves three attacks on each ferocity window. Yet we are getting 3/2. We are losing two attacks from our ferocity windows. Thats a huge DPS loss.

 

Lastly, this stack based ferocity window, is nothing short of an identity change for the spec. Carnage was always a high risk high reward spec. The fact that ferocity windows could be interupted and that burst potentially lost, sure that was annoying at times, but it served as a sort of inherent checks and balance sort of the thing for it's burst.

 

I've played the spec since day one, this is not a good thing that is happening, its a terrible thing and the entire playstyle is being lost. It isnt even about the DPS loss as much and the play style. We literally have to relearn how to play our spec after all these years. Carnage will no longer be fast based spec, it doesnt need it anymore. Alacrity is now totally useless for the spec and it's still getting stuck with a stance bonus to alacrity and a beserk ability bonus of alacrity, neither which it will need at all.

 

So heres what happens now, you get rid of all those alacrity augs and replace them with the new and improved power augs coming and you dump all [or most] your alacrity enhancements and replace them with crit enhancements, which will than lead to HUGE burst numbers, you will be seeing 30k+ burst attacks with a fair amount of regularity back to back. If you get hit with a beserk ferocity window with bloodthirst in effect, you are going to be taking upwards of 90K damage in three seconds that cannot be stopped, shutdown or interupted, followed by another 50-60k more 5 seconds later that also cannot be stopped, shut down or interupted. There will be no more lost windows, now in the short term thats good, but overall its a big dps loss. This will be worse for PVE than for pvp but it will still be a dps loss overall for pvp as well, its just that the kill potential in the short term is going to skyrocket. People are going to screaming and moaning about eating 90K and 50k in ten seconds and scream for nerfing again.

 

Carnage is the most nerfed spec of 5.x.

 

Everyone loses here. If you think by siting Carnage you are helping your cause, your not, because this is going to set a precedent that even when it is the fault of the devs who made changes based on lack of understanding of how the specs operate they will not fix it even when its pointed out to them and acknowledged.

 

They don't care about fair. Their mistakes we pay for. How it is possible that a dev who's job it is to "balance the classes" doesn't even understand how the specs work defies logic.

 

Carnage is going to cease to exist as it has been all these years. Its a terrible thing to arbitraily lose the operation of a spec you have come to know for years and have it changed completely. This could have been handled very simply and they would have met their design goals. The change is about clipping, you take clipping away and you leave the spec as is, youve met your design target and the players keep the play style they love and have been playing for years. They choose to completely rip the carpet out from under us.

 

Carnage users are not happy, this is a terrible thing to most of them.

 

I'm going to give it a try, but, I'm pretty confident this is a deal breaker for me, and having spoken and seen the comments of many other carnage users, I'm not alone in that.

 

I hope you get your change reversed. I really do. It's a terrible thing they are doing to Assassins with their change.

But citing carnage is not the way you want to go, carnage is the precedent for unrighteous class change based on lack of knowledge of how specs operate. They didn't "give" us anything by including a third attack on beserk, we already had that, and they are still withholding an attack from us that we shouldn't be losing at all because you didn't need to clip to get a third attack.

 

They take away whatever they want, do not look for reason, do not look for evidence because even when supplied and acknowledged they still don't care.

 

It would be foolish to think that carnage is the only spec that they don't understand how it actually works, and that they wouldn't reverse changes that were erroneously made in other specs.

 

I hope you get a reversal, but I don't think you will, because they do not care about fair, reality, or how changes can ruin specs.

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*snip*

 

Hey you're back :D

Just to clarify,I agree with you here, it isn't what you can call a good deal. It makes carnage worse in PvE but better in PvP (basically increase the margin of error). I perfectly see where the flaws are, but I also see that they're able to see when they're doing sh*t at a too big level (2stack only was ridiculous, I don't play the spec but even I know about alacrity). What I meant to say was that carnage marauders received a slight correction of this nerf, I think it we can still hope to have a little adjustment too, Both type of players have been clear enough for those changes I think, they are just stupid, especially since it took one year to make them.

Anyway, I see your point, don't worry, I've seen a carnage main in my guild almost leave the game because of that :')

Cya after the nerf-joke guys :(

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Just in case BW actually checks their own threads regarding changes. After some time with these 5.6 changes being live, yeah, they suck just as bad as we told you they would. Infiltration survivability is nonexistent given chain stuns and gimped damage. Please acknowledge your mistakes and fix things.
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Agreed, Infiltration is absolutely terrible in PvP now, I don't even want to go into PvP anymore on my shadow. I'd rather take my Jugg or Sent, two classes I barely know how to play, than my shadow which I've played for years into PvP now. The chain stuns and gimp damage destroy the class and any role it used to have in PvP. Can't stealth cap nodes worth a crap, can't defend nodes worth a crap, can't burst down healers, etc. etc.
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It took me 2 seconds to figure out this was bad just reading the patch notes. I told you so.

 

This whole thing might not be half as bad if we had Phase Walk back though. In earlier builds of the game we didnt have any stun DR either, but with Phase Walk present we could still prevent ourselves getting globalled too often.

 

If I'd be given a choice right now to have stun dr or pw that'd be a seriously hard choice.

I'd probably go for the pw because I like active abilities way better than passives. And for the versatility it offers.

Edited by Evolixe
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Right now we [as in players] are facing some other factors that are clearly making things more complicated as not only are melee specs [Carnage, Deception, PTs] dealing with the effects of their respective nerfs we also have bugged set bonus' issues on some specs that are noticable. Known ones are so far -

 

All sorc specs are gaining a healing boost that has [ I don't recall the exact name the ability, I think its something with mend in it heh] but it's not only healer the sorc themselves it's also healing multiple people as well when it's not suppose to, so their is a notable rise in heals right now and it applies only to sorcs, so other healers are also feeling it because they are somewhat behind the ball with sorc heals again.

 

We also have Arsenal which is bugged and its doing a lot more damage than it's suppose to and if I understood it correctly its making their energy management much easier and their is speculation that it's also causing a higher crit rate on some attacks. Obviously this is resulting in DPS increases that exceed what BW has effected in the "class balancing".

 

Sniper is also believed to be one of the specs this set bonus bug is effecting, although to be fair, this hasn't been confirmed. BW came right and said there is something bugged for certain specs that is effecting both heals and DPS upwardly. They are not giving a full listing of those specs that are effected but in the case of Sorc heals and Arsenal the evidence of these bugs is pretty convincing. [Arsenal bug was brought to attention by someone I know from the Shadowlands who is extremely well versed in the math and spec preformance so I give his observations credence, as he knows his stuff].

 

So yeah, these nerfs they suck, but we're also dealing with new imbalances now and obviously that effects everyone so bare that in mind.

 

That's all we needed, more heal imbalances, and another thing to make mercs OP as Fk. heh. Given funny God can be at times, I have no doubt Snipers are getting a similar boost heh.

 

So now we have other causes of class imbalances in addition to the Combat teams incompetence .

Ain't pvp in the 5.x era grand? =p

Edited by WayOfTheWarriorx
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Nobody is willing to take responsibility for needing to change their playstyle to adjust for the changes.

 

Not all changes are appropriate or warranted. If this meta hasn't made that abundantly clear than perhaps you are just on the good side of the changes made. - I don't even play an Assassin and I think it's wrong. I'm calling a spade a spade here.

 

The problem is that very few people seem to care unless a change effects them directly. That is, of course, until those people get something cut off their respective spec that was not appropriate, than they want to scream and rant. Karma's a bytch.

 

No one *****es about the changes to Fury for example, there's a reason for that.

 

As far as responsibility is concerned - You take responsibility for the things that you do, not for the things other people do to you. That's on them.

Edited by WayOfTheWarriorx
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You're right about people not caring where it doesnt affect them. Its the people that come here complaining we shouldn't make any objections that cry the hardest when their main class (which actually was op) gets a deserved nerf.

 

When sins were op, i didnt advocate the class. Not even slightly. I wad very plain about it being stupidly powerful AND i made plenty of suggestions on how it could be adressed without overdoing it.

 

Of course.. those suggestions were largely ignored.

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You're right about people not caring where it doesnt affect them. Its the people that come here complaining we shouldn't make any objections that cry the hardest when their main class (which actually was op) gets a deserved nerf.

 

When sins were op, i didnt advocate the class. Not even slightly. I wad very plain about it being stupidly powerful AND i made plenty of suggestions on how it could be adressed without overdoing it.

 

Of course.. those suggestions were largely ignored.

Everyone is affected by every change (not just sin changes) either directly or indirectly. The numbers gave BW the support needed for the changes on an average player level - likely not on your personal level. Everyone needs to adjust to the changes. It is very possible that some of the good players are not adjusting very well. You can deny it all you want, and claim to be a great player, but the possibility is still there that you adjusted less efficiently than others. Changes made often suit different playstyles better than others, and if the changes go away from your personal tendencies/strategies, then you will have more adjusting to do than someone else who may look more "pro" than you now.

 

The changes were just recently done, and people havent given themselves much of an opportunity to adjuat.

 

But hey, im open minded about changes and nerfs, and dont jump to conclusions, so maybe its just me.

 

And Evolixe, its not that they ignored you, its that their numbers didnt support your findings. Without supportive data, changes arent likely to be made.

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