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Why if the tank can't hold agro, it is their fault ?


Elfeden

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Well you know a magical vanguard apparently. I know a horse that kinda looks like a unicorn. My point is you can't balance this game based on the theoretically possible that very rarely is achieved by anyone. You have to base balance in a typical player experience.

 

If you do that, then the top-tier players will push classes into places where they are incredibly unbalanced. Classes need to be balanced around their maximum potential assuming perfect play, and then that balance should be checked assuming a 15-20% random error rate to see how accessible the class is. Balance need not be as tight at sub-optimal levels, but things should be at least reachable.

 

I don't think the vanguard tank rotation is sufficiently complex that it cannot be managed by the average player. It's about as simple as the jugg rotation, though the jugg rotation requires tracking a few more procs, and it's much simpler than the assassin rotation, which requires tracking a *lot* of procs.

 

People look at the snap threat assassins can achieve and they think "easy-mode tank", but if I had a nickle for every bad sin tank that has failed to hold agro even for an instant (and also failed to stay alive as their active mitigation fell), I would be a very wealthy guy.

 

Vanguard DPS is NOT as good as jugger and assassin over time. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

 

On my shadow tank, I can sustain about 1.3k-1.4k DPS on a boss with a 78 off hand when I'm being hit consistently. My vanguard cotank, who traditionally does terribly on DPS classes, is able to sustain very nearly the same. I've seen juggernauts in the same neighborhood.

 

In any case, DPS over time doesn't matter due to taunt fluff. It's just a question of snap threat, and all of the tanks are able to do enough in that situation to avoid people pulling off them. Full stop. DPS should know where their agro dump button is, but the fact is that they should be able to just concentrate on pushing the highest numbers they can while executing on the mechanics of the fight. That's the job of the DPS. The job of the tank is to a) minimize damage, and b) control mechanics and movement such that the fight is as close to a pure dummy fight for the DPS as can possibly be managed. If I can get a DPS in my group who is able to turret and tunnel-vision on the boss (without losing awareness for things that actually matter), I consider that a fantastic success.

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If you do that, then the top-tier players will push classes into places where they are incredibly unbalanced. Classes need to be balanced around their maximum potential assuming perfect play, and then that balance should be checked assuming a 15-20% random error rate to see how accessible the class is. Balance need not be as tight at sub-optimal levels, but things should be at least reachable..

 

Excactly that's the case.

 

I don't think the vanguard tank rotation is sufficiently complex that it cannot be managed by the average player. It's about as simple as the jugg rotation, though the jugg rotation requires tracking a few more procs, and it's much simpler than the assassin rotation, which requires tracking a *lot* of procs.

 

People look at the snap threat assassins can achieve and they think "easy-mode tank", but if I had a nickle for every bad sin tank that has failed to hold agro even for an instant (and also failed to stay alive as their active mitigation fell), I would be a very wealthy guy.

 

 

 

On my shadow tank, I can sustain about 1.3k-1.4k DPS on a boss with a 78 off hand when I'm being hit consistently. My vanguard cotank, who traditionally does terribly on DPS classes, is able to sustain very nearly the same. I've seen juggernauts in the same neighborhood.

 

In any case, DPS over time doesn't matter due to taunt fluff. It's just a question of snap threat, and all of the tanks are able to do enough in that situation to avoid people pulling off them. Full stop. DPS should know where their agro dump button is, but the fact is that they should be able to just concentrate on pushing the highest numbers they can while executing on the mechanics of the fight. That's the job of the DPS. The job of the tank is to a) minimize damage, and b) control mechanics and movement such that the fight is as close to a pure dummy fight for the DPS as can possibly be managed. If I can get a DPS in my group who is able to turret and tunnel-vision on the boss (without losing awareness for things that actually matter), I consider that a fantastic success.

 

I am about 1,3k dps on my assassin tank, but i think i did put too much of the new gear to my sniper alt i guess :).

Actually from full dps potential i saw some vanguards/powertechs in the same range as shadows/assassins but i never saw juggs there. Juggs actual dps seems to be about 100-200 dps lower, i don't know it excactly about threat tough.

 

Well if the dps are producing way more aggro then the tanks they might even rip aggro of him some minutes into the fight (saw that when i was dpsing :)). But then tanks can just do taunt fluffing and 10% more threat is an endless number of gcd the dps would need to rip aggro again.

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Well you know a magical vanguard apparently. I know a horse that kinda looks like a unicorn. My point is you can't balance this game based on the theoretically possible that very rarely is achieved by anyone. You have to base balance in a typical player experience.

 

Vanguard DPS is NOT as good as jugger and assassin over time. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

 

This. When I'm tanking on shadow I can afford slacking, sentinels or sharps/sage dont pull. Ever. On Vanguard, rotation must be flawless or sharp will pull. Not constantly, but if he crits with sth... can happen. I tend to expect that and have taunt ready as soon as I see it, but it is silly to claim it cannot happen. Aggro dump should be in every dps rotation, sadly it isn't.

Edited by TheRampage
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That's not always enough. The aggro dump is only a 10% drop. Now, think about it this way. Your tank will be sustaining 1100-1200 dps. That comes out to 2400 tps from pure dps. Add in a few high threat abilities, and it's more. But, a dps can sustain 3100-3200 dps, which is 3200 tps. Yes, you might be able to avoid the pull in your burst, but a good tank will be rolling taunts through an opener anyway, just to be safe. Later in the fight though, it can get risky. Especially on a fight like Raptus, where the tank causes reduced threat.

 

Missed this until just now. You're actually underestimating the percentage of a tank's rotation that is high-threat, especially shadows and guardians. I sustain 1.3-1.4k DPS, but my threat per second is around 3.7k. Outside the opener, I really have no trouble out running any DPS. The only problems happen when they get a damage buff and I get pulled off the target for one reason or another. For example, one my guild's slingers has pulled off me late on Grob'thok due to me being CC'd, him not being guarded and the damage buff he got during the post-pipe phase.

 

Raptus is really annoying, to be sure. It's the only fight where my guild's DPS agro dump at all. I just call for it when I know my threat building is low or after an agro reset. It's like a poor-man's taunt fluff, since the rest of the group is getting simultaneously debuffed.

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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My question to this is, fault for what? If I lose agro and the dps dies, then yes I am at fault for causing a wipe. If the dps doesn't take any significant damage, because I was able to regain agro, then what am I at fault for? :rolleyes:

 

When talking about threat generation I rarely use a taunt in my opener unless I am on my Guardian. My Vanguard main, the group I run with gives me two GCD's before they begin attacking as they do with our Shadows (mine is sitting on the shelf at this time), but when I am on my Guardian or dpsing for one, we wait till after Guardian Slash or even Blade Storm no matter the gear lvl and it's inevitable that the Guardian will have to throw a taunt. Generally I will have to throw a taunt on the few bosses that allow precasting of Orbital Strike, but I never use it as a set part of my rotation even on those bosses. If I believe a rip is coming, I will have it on the ready for when I see the target of target change but generating agro is my first and foremost thought and the single target taunt is there to make sure I am doing that while the boss is on me.

 

But from what I have been reading that even after the buffs given to Guardians in 2.0, their single target threat generation still needs some love. There was a Guardian I used to run with that thought far too highly of himself that I would mess with by being a bit derpy and either going in when he did or just simply hit Hammer Shot to pull agro from him so he would have to use his taunt. ;)

 

I do have a question or eight that will help me in threat generation for my Guardian when I make the pull. Preload Combat Focus or wait till sometime after Force Leap and use Sundering Strike? This may tie into my first question, but Saber Throw as an opener, yes or no? Should Hilt Strike be before or after Riposte or used while waiting for Force Sweep/Guardian Slash to come off of cooldown in the opener? I generally have to use my taunt at some point with this rotation:

 

Saber Throw (more often than not)

Force Leap

Force Sweep

Guardian Strike

(Sundering Strike if Combat Focus is not preloaded or I enter combat with 2-4 Focus before Force Leap)

Riposte

Blade Storm

Sundering Strike

Master Strike/Hilt Strike

Hilt Strike/Master Strike

Priority: Riposte>Force Sweep=Guardian Strike>Blade Storm>Sundering Strike, Master Strike, Hilt Strike

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The biggest threat issue I've had lately isn't on my tank; its my Pyro merc. If I push my opener, ill pull threat without a guard. Fine, all well and good. So I don't push 100% and don't get to maximize my epeen. Or even in my raid group I am our #1 guarded dps (over a carnage Mara and a hybrid sniper). But them in PuGs (where I typically practice my real world rotation) unless the tank knows me I don't get guarded which means I'm not pushing and subsequently no actually practicing. It doesn't matter if/when I threat drop since my DoTs are still ticking and in a few GCDs unless the tank again knows me and taunted its going to come right back to me. Has anyone else been seeing this issue with pyro Mercs in particular?
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I don't see how you guys are constantly holding aggro without taunts. The group I run with have several Dread Forged pieces and are putting out 2.9-3k+ DPS and I need to taunt in my opening rotation in order to keep aggro. If one of the DPS' gets a lucky roll with a lot crits, they are going to pull aggro off me unless I have taunted in my opening rotation. Edited by HBCentaurion
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a bunch of words......the group I run with gives me two GCD's before they begin attacking ...more words....when I am on my Guardian or dpsing for one, we wait till after Guardian Slash or even Blade Storm.....then lots'a other words

 

Does...

Not...

Compute...

 

This is just my personal pet peeve, but to me, that is unacceptable. If my DPS are having to sit there doing nothing and waiting on me to build some threat first, then I am not doing my job. My cue to pull the boss and start the encounter is our sniper's Orbital Strike.

 

I know there are a lot of people that have "a thing" against using taunts in the rotation, and that's fine and dandy, but it's being compensated for somewhere else....either through gear disparity, bad DPS, DPS holding back, not running max content, or something. Regardless of how the dues are getting paid, it's there somewhere, and by not maximizing your potential with taunting in the rotation, you are doing a disservice to your DPS.

 

And now I want to plant an evil little bug in your mind..... :D (I'm no KBN, but I can do the mathzes on this one)

4 DPS @ 2.5 - 3k DPS = 10,000 -12,000 DPS

10-12k DPS * 3 sec (2GCDs) = 30,000 - 36,000 damage lost

I just wanted to throw that out there so that the next time a group wipes and the boss only has 30-36k health left...

people can look back at this and cuss my arse out for being a douchebag.

MUWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! :rak_03:

Edited by Grumpftard
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Does...

Not...

Compute...

 

This is just my personal pet peeve, but to me, that is unacceptable. If my DPS are having to sit there doing nothing and waiting on me to build some threat first, then I am not doing my job. My cue to pull the boss and start the encounter is our sniper's Orbital Strike.

 

I know there are a lot of people that have "a thing" against using taunts in the rotation, and that's fine and dandy, but it's being compensated for somewhere else....either through gear disparity, bad DPS, DPS holding back, not running max content, or something. Regardless of how the dues are getting paid, it's there somewhere, and by not maximizing your potential with taunting in the rotation, you are doing a disservice to your DPS.

 

And now I want to plant an evil little bug in your mind..... :D (I'm no KBN, but I can do the mathzes on this one)

4 DPS @ 2.5 - 3k DPS = 10,000 -12,000 DPS

10-12k DPS * 3 sec (2GCDs) = 30,000 - 36,000 damage lost

I just wanted to throw that out there so that the next time a group wipes and the boss only has 30-36k health left...

people can look back at this and cuss my arse out for being a douchebag.

MUWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! :rak_03:

 

Pfff if you die with the boss at 30-36k health left you need more marauders with bloodthirst!

Anyway, all current content allows for both tanks to initiate with taunts and rotate up to 6 taunts in a row.

Yes even Tyrans, Raptus and the Dread Council, Brontes will have her 4 stacks on you and the other tank can taunt.

If tanks are unable to hold aggro on their own they should cooperate and hold aggro together, if two tanks lose aggro even with 6 back to back taunts then they are undergeared or missing basic knowledge about their class and rotations.

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I do not have an issue with using a taunt and if it helps out the raid group I am all for putting it my rotation and do so when I am on my Guardian. We don't have an issue hitting enrage timers generally speaking so if a wipe occurs it is generally due to mechanics than lack of dps. One of the reasons I read the forums is to improve my game play and understand the game better. :) Sorry for my wall of text.
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I do not have an issue with using a taunt and if it helps out the raid group I am all for putting it my rotation and do so when I am on my Guardian. We don't have an issue hitting enrage timers generally speaking so if a wipe occurs it is generally due to mechanics than lack of dps. One of the reasons I read the forums is to improve my game play and understand the game better. :) Sorry for my wall of text.

 

I have to use a taunt in my opener, or I'll lose agro. I actually have to save one of my taunts when I tank Thrasher in Nightmare Mode, and it is nail bitingly terrifying, because if I get any misses at all, my DPS will pull. The DPS on Thrasher is tight enough that we have to open VERY hard and I can't really pre-pull. It's worth noting that the DPS I run with are good enough that, due to the fact that there are only two guards to go around, I am unable to guard a DPS pulling a 3.1k and another DPS pulling a flat 3k (since the other two are both higher and higher up front burst).

 

I'm not exactly sure how you could reliably hold agro in the opener without taunt fluffing, given that most good DPS are opening between 4k and 6k DPS.

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@ Josh....please don't take that wrong... I wasn't really aiming for your head there :(

I did catch where you said that you do on one tank but not so much on the other. It was meant as more of a blanket statement, because I have come across a lot of people who are totally of the mind set that taunts are supposed to be used only as the start button or if a DPS pulls. And some of them have been so adamant that they will defend this theory with the lovely statement of "If you have to taunt in your rotation then L2P, noob!"

 

 

words, words..... :) Sorry for my wall of text.

 

Don't EVER be sorry for walls of text :D

I LOVE walls of text.

I just never quote the whole wall.

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Pfff if you die with the boss at 30-36k health left you need more marauders with bloodthirst!

 

Yeah...you joke....that crap happened last night going into phase 3 on Dread Master Cyphilis. Healer wound up with the red circle and brought it with him into the Orange.....that started one hell of a chain reaction and Cyph got away with 9k health. :mad: Talk about mad, lol!

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Yeah...you joke....that crap happened last night going into phase 3 on Dread Master Cyphilis. Healer wound up with the red circle and brought it with him into the Orange.....that started one hell of a chain reaction and Cyph got away with 9k health. :mad: Talk about mad, lol!

 

I take it the chain reaction involved one or mutliple dps dropping like flies? But yeah the red aoe into orange portal on phase 3 is hilarious and it makes the healers scream like little girls.

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I actually have to save one of my taunts when I tank Thrasher in Nightmare Mode,

 

What I think is optimal on this:

Tank A, Tank B.

 

A starts with normal opener + ST (single taunt).

B uses ST in place of A's AoE taunt in the opener.

A uses ST.

Snipers spawn.

A uses AoE on snipers.

B uses AoE to taunt Thrasher, we use this in case Thrasher targets A and starts roaring, B then has ST to get him back. B's AoE will be up for 2nd sniper group.

 

I actually don't know what happens after Thrasher roars once at the tank upstairs, he might turn to the tank downstairs.

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I have to use a taunt in my opener, or I'll lose agro. I actually have to save one of my taunts when I tank Thrasher in Nightmare Mode, and it is nail bitingly terrifying, because if I get any misses at all, my DPS will pull. The DPS on Thrasher is tight enough that we have to open VERY hard and I can't really pre-pull. It's worth noting that the DPS I run with are good enough that, due to the fact that there are only two guards to go around, I am unable to guard a DPS pulling a 3.1k and another DPS pulling a flat 3k (since the other two are both higher and higher up front burst).

 

I'm not exactly sure how you could reliably hold agro in the opener without taunt fluffing, given that most good DPS are opening between 4k and 6k DPS.

 

To be fair, I don't run much Nightmare content due to my work schedule. Hard to find a group on Sunday evenings that wants to run Nightmare on my server. I am sure they are out there, but I am still relatively newish to progression raiding and I am content with the challenge that Hardmode gives me. Just to clarify, taunt fluffing is AOE taunt then single target taunt some time in the first three to six GCDs?

 

@ Josh....please don't take that wrong... I wasn't really aiming for your head there

I did catch where you said that you do on one tank but not so much on the other. It was meant as more of a blanket statement, because I have come across a lot of people who are totally of the mind set that taunts are supposed to be used only as the start button or if a DPS pulls. And some of them have been so adamant that they will defend this theory with the lovely statement of "If you have to taunt in your rotation then L2P, noob!"

 

Oh but you did such a fantastic job of it! :p If there is one thing I hate and tell to people who I am giving my Tanking 101 to, you never start a fight with a taunt. I had for a very long time only used my taunts as a last resort, but I grew as a player and tank both in game experience and from you fine people it became a situationial part of an opener. i.e. Titan 6.

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To be fair, I don't run much Nightmare content due to my work schedule. Hard to find a group on Sunday evenings that wants to run Nightmare on my server. I am sure they are out there, but I am still relatively newish to progression raiding and I am content with the challenge that Hardmode gives me. Just to clarify, taunt fluffing is AOE taunt then single target taunt some time in the first three to six GCDs?

 

Sort of. Usually you single-target taunt first to get it off CD as soon as possible. The maximum threat opener for a shadow tank is as follows:

 

Pull > Sprint + Project > Slow Time > Force Breach + Single Taunt > Double Strike > Project > Force Potency + Telekinetic Throw > AoE Taunt + …

 

That is taunt fluffing. You can do that on most bosses, but unfortunately some do have mechanical restrictions which prevent this (see Thrasher). In those cases, you can sometimes swap off between tanks to increase threat, and you should do that if the opener is causing you issues.

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  • 2 weeks later...
I think too that you have to know what your dps can handle. we all play every class in the game and know the ins and outs of them right? the only person ill pull agro back from is heals. i mean, once and a while ill pull it off a dps if they are going to be killed and its going to make a difference to the op, but they can usually take it.
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I just want to step in here with a slightly different single target opener for guardian.

 

Firstly, please don't use saber throw. It just doesn't generate enough threat to make the extra 3 focus (which is slightly unneeded if you are maintanking) worth it.

 

1. Combat Focus

2. Leap + Reflect

3. Guardian Strike + Riposte

4. Hilt Strike

5. Sweep

6. Blade Storm

7. Master Strike (The taunt is to ensure you don't lose aggro during MS which is just a pain)

 

Then just proceed with normal priorities (Just a side note, your dps do have aggro drops and should be using them when they see the taunt as avisual cue, except for sentinels and guardians due to the inherent usefulness of their threat drops)

 

The idea behind this is that your dps don't do amazing dps while they are dead, and also if they have to move during their opener or interrupt a cast in order to threat drop it's just detrimental.

 

So this opener brings the balance between allowing your dps to maximise their dps and you holding threat.

 

Discussing a few items, the first one being, Why is Sweep so far down the list?

 

Sweep is so far down the list because I have ordered the opener in terms of Highest Threat per GCD to Lowest Threat Per GCD, and Sweep just doesn't generate as much threat as Hilt Strike, so why put it before Hilt Strike? Because of the Accuracy Debuff + Armor Debuff I hear you say. Well the Accuracy Debuff is applied 1 GCD later, so unless if you get railed by an unmitigated M/R attack that would have missed if you had that extra 5% effective defense and your healers are unable to compensate for that hit in the first 4 GCD's of a fight, then by all means throw that sweep up 2 GCD's earlier, but outside of that extremely unlikely scenario, place it in it's proper place, which is below the higher threat generation moves. The second part of Sweep gives the boss an Armor Debuff which helps your personal dps and the dps in your group hit harder, and this is where this opener creates the compromise that allows you to hold threat. The Armor Debuff helps out the dps in your raid team a whole lot more than it does you, this basically means that you have a harder time holding that threat because the dps are already hitting much harder than you, on the flipside, the dps are usually number hungry wolves who are insistent that the boss should be their new friend and not yours, and will be disappointed at not seeing such high numbers between GCD's 2 - 4, but they can suck it up, because they get to live. Again this is pretty much personal preference, because the difference between a non crit Hilt Strike and a non crit Force Sweep is about ~400 threat, but it's still more threat, and it is effectively ~520 threat to the dps that are trying their damnedest to pull off you. Once crits come into play, it only widens the gap.

 

Why don't you put Sweep before Guardian Slash?

 

Guardian Slash gets turned into an approximate conal attack when used on a target effected by an Armor Debuff, which is all brilliant, except when you are pulling a boss that doesn't have adds up straight away that are within the reach of the conal, it only buffs the damage by Guardian Slash by a little bit from the Armor Debuff and as I said before, buffs the dps in your raid's damage much more. Guardian Slash is the highest threat move you have available to use because it has a 2.6x threat multiplier coupled with it's fairly high base damage and allows the use of Riposte which hits fairly hard as well as being off the GCD. More importantly, using Force Sweep before Guardian Slash delays your snap threat which can be vitally important if you have an aggro hungry gunnery commando in your raid who gave up long ago on starting with TO +GR > Relic + Adrenal + DR > HiB because it was just a recipe for disaster if he got some crits or if I had a miss/resist on any of my attacks.

 

As a side note, this opener slightly reduces mitigation for the first 7.5 seconds, but at that point in time it shouldn't be that much of an issue provided your healers are well, healing.

 

TL;DR, If there is one thing you should take away from this, don't use Saber Throw if you are MTing, you will get enough focus from Combat Focus and Leap to go through the first couple of GCD's without issue, Saber Throw is a wasted GCD due to it's pitiful threat generation and is just a recipe for you to lose aggro.

 

------------------ EDIT --------------------------

 

This is intended to be your opener if the dps in your group are pre-casting and are leaping/attacking as you leap. If they aren't, they should be.

Edited by Afieri
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1. Combat Focus

2. Leap + Reflect

3. Guardian Strike + Riposte

4. Hilt Strike

5. Sweep

6. Blade Storm

7. Master Strike (The taunt is to ensure you don't lose aggro during MS which is just a pain)

 

Guardian openers are the way they are in order to sync ability use to their 12 second cycle, (long term efficiency in mind), but the focus loss from skipping saber throw is something you would easily recover from.

 

One suggestion I have is moving blade storm to after master strike. That would give you an extra riposte on the tail end of the sweep gcd just before Master Strike assuming there is focus left:

 

1. Combat Focus

2. Leap + Reflect

3. Guardian Strike + Riposte

4. Hilt Strike

5. Sweep

6. Riposte + Master Strike

7. Blade Storm

Edited by Marb
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Guardian openers are the way they are in order to sync ability use to their 12 second cycle, (long term efficiency in mind), but the focus loss from skipping saber throw is something you would easily recover from.

 

One suggestion I have is moving blade storm to after master strike. That would give you an extra riposte on the tail end of the sweep gcd just before Master Strike assuming there is focus left:

 

1. Combat Focus

2. Leap + Reflect

3. Guardian Strike + Riposte

4. Hilt Strike

5. Sweep

6. Riposte + Master Strike

7. Blade Storm

 

Thanks for that Strudel :) forgot about the fact that riposte will be up again within the opener, I only put blade storm before master strike because of the absorb shield and the fact that it is more front loaded damage than master strike.

 

The reason why I like this opener is because it has a higher snap threat, and with regards to long term efficiency, the first priority is establishing a threat pool by which it can never be topped by a dps outside of mechanics, and then creating a sustainable rotation outside of that. Taking 6-9 seconds of just striking and slashing after 30 seconds into a boss fight in order to get your 12 second synchronisation back seems fairly doable and shouldn't affect your mitigation too much. Another thing to point out is that as soon as you have downtime on a target with nothing to hit, you get a brief reprieve to sort out your ability usage and get back to that optimal routine :).

 

Just my thoughts anyway :3

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Pull > Sprint + Project > Slow Time > Force Breach + Single Taunt > Double Strike > Project > Force Potency + Telekinetic Throw > AoE Taunt + …

 

Force potency gives no DMG buf to TT it just gives it a 30 m range. Force potency goes before Project for the 60% crit or before a accelerated project, that gives it a 50% DMG on top of the guaranteed crit.

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Force potency gives no DMG buf to TT it just gives it a 30 m range. Force potency goes before Project for the 60% crit or before a accelerated project, that gives it a 50% DMG on top of the guaranteed crit.

 

It does give a damage buff to TkT /Force Lightning. It gives a 60% increase in crit for every tick of force lightning (which is by far your hardest hitting ability)

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